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RedditIn recent years, Taco Bell and Burger King have foolishly resisted efforts by activists to marginally raise the piece rate they pay tomato pickers only to eventually buckle under the pressure of well-deserved bad press. Chipotle Mexican Grill seems to have learned nothing from their lessons.
Although Chipotle, the expanding Colorado-based restaurant chain formerly owned by McDonald's, touts its fair treatment of animals and its locally-sourced organic avocados, its colorful, interactive website neglects any mention of the fair treatment of farm workers. While CEO Steve Ells boasts about his "Food With Integrity" brand, he has ignored countless letters and petitions from all over the country, asking for an extra penny per pound for his tomato pickers.
Migrant pickers typically work ten to twelve hour days, earning a piece-rate of about forty-five cents for each thirty-two pound bucket of tomatoes. Work is never guaranteed, there is no health care, and no overtime pay. The average annual income for a farm worker is $10,000.
Or take this snapshot of the average workday of a Florida tomato picker (with credit to the fine blog, The Pump Handle):
*4:30am: Wake-up. Prepare lunch in your trailer.
*5:00am: Walk to the parking lot or pick-up site to begin looking for work.
*6:30am: With luck, a contractor will choose you to work for him for the day. The job may be 10 to 100 miles away.
*7:30am: Arrive at the fields and begin weeding or waiting while the dew evaporates from the tomatoes. You are usually not paid for this time.
*9:00am: Begin picking tomatoes--filling buckets, hoisting them on your shoulder, running them 100 feet or more to the truck and throwing the bucket up into the truck. Work fast because you must pick 2 TONS of tomatoes in order to earn $50 today.
*Noon: Eat lunch as fast as you can, often with your hands soaked in pesticides. Return to work under the smoldering Florida sun.
*5:00pm: (sometimes later, depending on the season): Board bus to return to Immokalee.
Between 5:30 pm and 8:00 pm: Arrive in Immokalee and walk home.
(And the next day, get up and do it all again. Photos here)
Surely a company that took over $1 billion in annual sales last year can afford a modest raise request. Instead, Ells has tried to side-step the issue by looking to purchase tomatoes from places other than Florida.
Galvanizing the grassroots organizing by and for the Florida tomato pickers is the same group that led the successful fights against Taco Bell and Burger King -- the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW), founded in 1993 as a "community-based worker organization" with members from diverse backgrounds, in low-wage agricultural jobs throughout Florida.
On Friday afternoon, August 8th, the CIW along with hundreds of members of United Students Against Sweatshops (USAS) will be in Denver at Chipotle's corporate headquarters to demand that the restaurant chain work to ensure fairer wages and more humane working conditions for farmworkers. If you're in the Denver area, please join what should be a large and powerful action. if you're not, see what you can do to help the campaign, which has garnered the attention of Congress, with lawmakers earlier this year calling for the Government Accountabilty Office to launch an investigation into working conditions.
CIW's website is filled with details on the demonstration, sample letters to Steve Ells, and other ways that you can do something for some of the poorest and hardest working people in America, including urging Chipotle customers to print out this letter and hand it to the manager at your local Chipotle restaurant. The CIW has gone up against Goliath before and won. With dedication and solidarity, this fight can also be won.
Co-written and researched by Mica Schlosser.
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Peter Rothberg
Your guide to expressing informed dissent to war, racism, sexism, environmental degradation and market-based solutions to social problems.
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Well, good luck, PETER.
Ya got Burger King, maybe you can get these guys, but sounds like Ellis, being smaller, might "get away with it" if he can purchase 'maters from outside Florida.
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/29/2008 @ 12:59pm
tomato:
ORIGIN early 17th cent.: from French, Spanish, or Portuguese tomate, from Nahuatl tomatl.
it's a frikkin' mexican plant!
chipotle:
ORIGIN Mexican Spanish, from Nahuatl.
it's a frikkin' smoked xalapeρo!
i imagine the food's crappy at this place anyways. let's see:
http://www.chipotle.com/assets/menu.pdf
well, after checking the menu, it seems to be "mexican" food only a gringo could love. do yourselves a favour and visit a local mamα y papα restaurante and have some real food!
hey! on this page there's a form you can fill out to request chipotle "philanthropy". maybe if we bombard them with "requests", they will wake up.
http://www.chipotle.com/philanthropy/default.asp
Chipotle supports organizations through sponsorships, in-restaurant fundraisers, donations, and our scrip program. Currently our primary areas of focus include, but are not limited to, children, education, youth sports, community improvement projects, animal welfare, sustainable agriculture and the arts.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 1:09pm
thank you peter, yet another great piece (no pun intended).
i know this probably isn't a very good strategy, but my stance on these kinds of restaurants is to simply not patronize them. their burritos prob suck anyway.
the best thing to do is start with friends and family. tell them why shopping 'local, seasonal and organic' is the only mantra. no chain stores. no fast food. farmers markets and home cookin' are *the* way to go. it's the economically, socially, culturally and environmentally responsible thing to do.
if one thing has completely ruined the landscape and fabric of this great nation, it is chain stores and everything that goes along with them. outside of the pleasant environs of fine cities like san francisco and portland, they cover the landscape, their trash and pollution accompany them in myriad ways (parking lots, billboards, etc).....
my advice: food from farmers or farmers markets. and if you have to eat out, find a local place with fresh local food.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 1:10pm
Great piece - informative, provocative and inspirational. Thank you.
Posted by nicR at 07/29/2008 @ 2:21pm
if he can purchase 'maters from outside Florida.
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/29/2008 @ 12:59pm
how ironic.
pseudo mexican food laced with pseudo mexican hothouse tomatoes from canada,
picked by mexicans!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 2:34pm
if one thing has completely ruined the landscape and fabric of this great nation, it is chain stores and everything that goes along with them. outside of the pleasant environs of fine cities like san francisco and portland, they cover the landscape, their trash and pollution accompany them in myriad ways (parking lots, billboards, etc).....
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 1:10pm
when i was a kid, i travelled extensively around the eastern u.s..
each town was different.
but now, IT'S ALL THE SAME!
and even worse, it's happening to canada and mιxico, too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 2:50pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 2:30pm
Darin, your math has a spin too, doesn't it?
A 75% increase in the salary of an airline pilot making $85,000 a year would be $148,750.
A 75% increase in the salary of a migrant worker making $10,000 would be $17,500.
Now, there is little substantive difference in lifestyle between $85,000 and $148,000 (sure bigger house, private schools, but hardly life or death).
While there is an ENORMOUS difference between ten grand a year and $17,500 a year...isn't there?
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/29/2008 @ 3:08pm
it would solve the problem.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 2:37pm
or maybe you could create a viable guest worker program instead of being so greedy.
do you have ANY idea why so many mexicans have been going to the u.s. lately?
any?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 3:09pm
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 2:29pm
such greed.
god doesn't like greed.
good luck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 3:11pm
It really shocks me just how ignorant we are of these people we exploit and rely on and mistreat.
Posted by Zero at 07/29/2008 @ 2:50pm
and even more ignorant of the reasons why.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 3:13pm
Does that seem reasonable to anyone?
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008
quit being an asshole and show some compassion for your fellow humans.
you were paid $6 an hour.
that's about $18 an hour now (thanks to the fed).
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 3:16pm
" That's a 70% 80% increase in costs!"
of tomatoes.....
not in costs, overall.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 3:38pm
"the food here tastes particularly good."
when you eat bad food most of the time, sure, chipotle probably tastes good......
that's why they don't have 'top chef' in nebraska. the food sucks.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 3:40pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
Looks like you've decided that these people have the ability to pick lots & lots of tomatoes.
And you've decided that their needs are minimal. Two or more families per house. One TV for every ten people. Dangerous old cars filled with people for every trip into town. Only need simple, inexpensive food.(the kind you don't have time to prepare). No money for health care or legal help. And your smug satisfaction that they're better off than"back home."
Posted by Sorelish at 07/29/2008 @ 3:40pm
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 3:21pm
Not commenting on you here. However what I find funny about many people who are so against immigration is that they say it is on the third world governments to solve their problems but then are in support of war in Iraq to liberate the people from their oppression. Isn't it on the Iraqi people to liberate themselves if you continue this train of thought?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 3:43pm
"if he wants to pay more for his tomatoes, then he can, if he doesn't want to, then he shouldn't be forced to do so"
this is what i would call 'faux objectivity'. maasch is attempting to absolve himself of what clearly is a deleterious social problem (underpaid migrant workers) by intellectually distancing himself from it. basically, what happens, happens. no amount of criticism or analysis will change that.
well, it's not true. peter uncovered something that, whether legal or illegal, is nonetheless quite significant. let's just call it 'ethnography'....
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 3:43pm
"..it is incumbent on the Mexican govt to provide a bulwark of protections for its workers to stay home and protect them from the excesses of their own society as it forces the problems of poverty and low wages onto and into the US, as if we are a dumping ground for the Mexican govt unending failures"
i almost agree with this, actually. that is why i was so shocked that conservatives, like maasch, supported the right wing candidate in mexico's last general elect.
the 'leftist' candidate promised sweeping reforms to address the problem.....
so why did fox news, the white house, etc, all support the right wing candidate?
because cheap labor is GOOD for them! even though they really could care less about mexico or mexicans, except for vacations and house cleaning and burritos!
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 3:48pm
"starting with Saddam murdering his own people"
sorry, but those weren't "his people". how many times do we have to go over this?
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 3:52pm
"Here we agree"
and yet you said:
"you should be demanding that the UN send observers down there to make sure the people are being treated in their own country as humans"
sounds like you did just that, blame their govt.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 4:04pm
"The largest private food company in the world is located here for a reason(Conagra)..."
great!
"Plenty of "special" crops are grown here for you,too.."
yeah, right.
"but I can tell you that the beef here is the best in the world"
if i only had time to respond to this.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 4:07pm
it is incumbent on the Mexican govt to provide a bulwark of protections for its workers to stay home and protect them from the excesses of their own society as it forces the problems of poverty and low wages onto and into the US, as if we are a dumping ground for the Mexican govt unending failures.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 3:21pm
you give america a bad name.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 4:16pm
it is incumbent on the Mexican govt to provide a bulwark of protections for its workers to stay home and protect them from the excesses of their own society as it forces the problems of poverty and low wages onto and into the US, as if we are a dumping ground for the Mexican govt unending failures.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 3:21pm
you give america a bad name.
you just have no idea, yet you spout and spout.
greedy fool.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 4:16pm
blaming their national governments for their problems.
Posted by Zero at 07/29/2008 @ 3:29pm
in this most recent case blame bill clinton's neoliberal b.s. combined with shafta.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 4:19pm
This seems to me to be a recipe for success anywhere on the planet..
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 3:41pm
well,
the problem is their neighbour.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 4:21pm
Curious...to the MBB, MAASCH, even RIO guys....
You guys OPPOSE workers organizing to demand better pay, benefits, etc.?
Does that mean that you would use ...government power...to stop such activities? Or is this just an academic exercise for you and you are just talking to talk?
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/29/2008 @ 4:22pm
Just checkin' in to say I've enjoyed this thread.
Good topic by Ari.
Good talkin' from the likes of Frosty, Darla, Zero, and Sorelish.
Drowning out the pompous voices of Monsta' Maasch and "MaryBretBrad"......
Priceless.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/29/2008 @ 4:30pm
What I don't understand is. Why are so many conservatives up in arms about what consumers and workers are doing to companies who don't comply with the demands. They aren't passing legislation to force the companies to pay the pickers better. Consumers and employees are simply boycotting the companies to force them to pay their employees better. They are also taking action to educate the public and allow them to make the choice whether they want to help the cause or ignore it. Why is this action wrong? Why is it something for some conservatives to insult? They aren't breaking the law, they aren't doing anything unconstitutional. They are simply using the power of the consumer and employee to protect workers. Isn't that essentially the free market? If a company has negative practices the market takes care of itself. This is the market taking care of itself. This is not government intervention. This is consumers and employees not buying from a company and informing others in order them to choose or not to choose to do the same thing. So what is there to complain about?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 4:45pm
"while I go invest in the company that builds the tomato picking robot for $15,000 per year"
go ahead, but those tomatoes won't taste good.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:07pm
"Great, all you liberals go back to patting each other on the back. Now the pricing of tomatoes has doubled, so demand will probably be cut by 50% and now only half of the pickers are unemployed"
if the quality of the goods, and the strength of the labor which produced said goods, are healthy, then incremental price increases are justifiable. it's as simple as that.
i would rather have my tomatoes grown down the street, or in the next county.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:16pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 5:09pm
No. I just want them to pay a living wage no matter if the person is American or not. The consumers and the employees are boycotting. That is their right. You have nothing to complain about. This is the free market adjusting. If the compnay doesn't want to pay them more then it continues to not pay them and they continue to lose business. This is the free market. They choose not to pay their pickers a living wage so they get boycotted on. It's not deception Mary. It's capitalism.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 5:16pm
"there is a problem there because most of these people are in this country illegally"
there is one major, major flaw in your argument: the people who employ illegals are making the most money (read: chipotle).
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:18pm
It's always rather amusing to observe self-satisfied know-it-alls spew the usual conventional economic wisdom about increasing wages leading to increasing unemployment blah, blah, blah......
Although it can be readily conceded that some truth is to be found there, there is truth as well to the idea of a society that creates the impetus for a more just distribution of the fruits its labors.
And then there is that slight problem of the free market mantra, "tariffs are bad."
America began its now rapid decline roughly about the time that Deng Xiaopeng visited the U.S. in '79 --there exists fascinating footage of the 5 foot tall Deng donning a ten gallon hat while visiting Texas-- and our market was opened wide in exchange for increased access for American corporations.
Look where that's gotten the American worker --not to mention the American economy writ large.
It's a tangled web we've woven.
And now we all await the spider.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/29/2008 @ 5:21pm
"because you know a large portion of that cost will be passed on to people who eat tomatoes, but they won't know it"
sure, but it's important that we recognize the problem.
it's not like laws are being passed which prohibit rampant economic growth in this industry.
as i see it, chipotle is having no problem expanding. whereas, in the land of mom & pop eateries? well, you know the situation.....most of the country is full of the crappiest food on the planet.....thanks to chipotle.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:22pm
"They are education, property rights, rule of law, and democratic government. (Noticeably absent is a generous welfare program.)"
not surprising that mary doesn't see a connection between "education" and "welfare program" (or, a lack thereof).
the reason we have a welfare program is because we fail to eductate our citizens (e.g. "oh, a second language isn't necessary").
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:25pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 5:37pm
When I say living wage I mean that if the job is a 10 hour job every day and that is all the person does they should be able to pay for food and a place to live.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 5:50pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008@ 5:43pm
Does anyone measure moral deficiencies? You might volunteer for the study. I'm sure you've got plenty of free time. After all, your money works while you sleep, right?
Posted by Sorelish at 07/29/2008 @ 6:44pm
What I don't understand is why people are so against this action? The people boycotting the company are practicing their right to freedom of speech. They want a company that they buy from to have better business practices. If the company doesn't want to change their habits then they don't have to. No one is forcing Chipotle to comply. This is a matter of freedom of speech. If a person wants to boycott a company it's their choice. They aren't doing anything wrong. a penny a pound for tomatoes translates into a fraction of a cent per burrito sold. I am willing to pay a fraction of a cent per burrito to ensure decent wages.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 6:47pm
MARY, My math skills are indeed lacking but my logic holds -- as well as your lack of compassion -- hold in this post. The pickers are terribly underpaid. If the salary request was put through they'd still be making only a little more than minimum for back-breaking labor for a corporation that is netting billions annually. That's the main point: Unlike your spurious examples, the employer in this case is not the bankrupt airline industry or the cash-starpped cities, it's a highly profittable corporation that can afford the increase without taking much of a hit.
Posted by Peter Rothberg at 07/29/2008 @ 6:47pm
Posted by Peter Rothberg at 07/29/2008 @ 6:47pm
It wouldn't be much of a hit. Even if they passed it to consumers it would be fractions of a penny per each product. I don't think most people would notice a raise of 1 penny per burrito.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 6:54pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 6:47pm
I sure agree with you CC. Companies providing a service must anticipate and satisfy consumer wishes, or go out of business. That is a free market. It is when government (politicians) enter the picture with wage and price controls (as a way of buying votes) that things get ugly.
With some exceptions, of course, as consumers we have a free choice. As citizens, we are ruled by force.
The picking labor force is undervalued in my opinion - and work in unacceptable conditions. And unlike other entry-level positions, such as busboy, bellman, etc., (all jobs I've had) there is no real advancement path I can see.
I would be willing to bet that many businesses over time have test marketed the concept of slightly higher prices to support humanitarian policies as a public relations effort to increase sales - and they've seen little or no return on investment. It is kind of like the ballot box. Many pontificate their concern for the underprivledged to anyone listening, but vote their pocketbook with the curtain drawn.
I like Chipotle. And I think their policy is less hypocrisy and more just bottom line.
Wouldn't it be great if Chipotle and other companies in this situation received a tax credit they could apply to pay higher tomato prices without undermining profitability or raising menu prices?
Tax cut. Them's fightin' words here. :-)
Posted by freiheit1 at 07/29/2008 @ 8:21pm
As far as being an asshole, you are what you eat, so there!
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 4:40pm
sorry about the personal comment.
my wife and son are mexican.
this stuff gets me quite riled.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 8:35pm
as if we are a dumping ground for the Mexican govt unending failures.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 3:21pm
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT PROPPED UP THE CORRUPT PRI FOR 73 YEARS.
AND IN 2006 THEY ONCE AGAIN STUCK THEIR NOSE IN AND MUCKED THINGS UP.
ALL SO THEY COULD RAPE ONE ON THE RICHEST AREAS OF THE PLANET WITHOUT INTERFERENCE FROM THE TRUE OWNERS (I.E. THE PEOPLE).
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 8:38pm
Unfortunately (whether they are here illegally or not) these people just don't have the skills and talents needed to generate the economic productivity to support themselves, much less their families.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 4:55pm
quit being such an asshole.
and why don't they have the skills?
FARMERS HAVE NO SKILLS?!?!?!?!?
quit being such an asshole.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 8:40pm
Wouldn't it be great if Chipotle and other companies in this situation received a tax credit they could apply to pay higher tomato prices without undermining profitability or raising menu prices? Tax cut. Them's fightin' words here. :-) Posted by freiheit1 at 07/29/2008 @ 8:21pm
This could be an incentive. Basically companies that comply with government regulations and treat their employees fairly could get tax cuts big enough to the point of tax exemption. Basically making it less profitable to treat your employees like dirt.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 8:51pm
robot
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 4:55pm
picking tomatoes?
well, one day.
sure, lots of prototypes abound.
and i suppose for mcdonald's type foodlike substance, robot tomatoes will be fine.
and i'm sure they'll develop a gmo tomato ready for the robots.
inevitable.
but right now,
right now people are suffering.
"Farmer Ted Batkin in Visalia says robots will never replace people on his farm.
BATKIN: We don't anticipate building a machine that's better than they are. There is nothing that is as efficient as a human picker."
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 8:58pm
and call anyone who questions you an asshole.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008
look,
a human is a human!
here in ontario, the mexicans come for 8 months, make $7-8/hour and then go home.
and the tomato farmers are doing great.
most don't want to stay here. they like mιxico.
but this hasn't happened because you'd rather exploit these people and hide them all so you can save
A FRICKING PENNY ON YOUR BIGGLE MAC!
perhaps one day slavery will end in america.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:06pm
(e.g. "oh, a second language isn't necessary").
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 5:25pm
of course not.
that's why god wrote the bible in english.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:17pm
economics text book?
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008
you mean like the neoliberal text book,
the one that has bankrupt america?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:19pm
Mental deficiencies are categorized by IQs below 70 (that's two standard deviations). Approximately 2½% of Americans have an IQ below 70. Roughly 3% of Americans make the minimum wage. Coincidence or educationaly failure?
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 5:43pm
iq tests are bullshit.
do they test to see if you can cook?
if you can fix a transmission?
they test to see if you are white.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:21pm
you know,
it's next to impossible for an illegal to get a job here.
(i have met a few and they invariably leave because they can't get a job)
why?
because employers are scared of doing such a thing.
you want to end this problem.
target the employers.
but that won't happen, will it.
one day slavery will end in america.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:24pm
I don't think most people would notice a raise of 1 penny per burrito.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/29/2008 @ 6:54pm
commie!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:24pm
Tax cut. Them's fightin' words here. :-)
Posted by freiheit1 at 07/29/2008 @ 8:21pm
hey there, mr. anti-inflation:
"The shortfalls Obama would produce don't approach the size of the deficits John McCain's budget threatens to bring. The Republican candidate's tax cuts alone would increase the debt by $5 trillion by 2018, compared with $3.4 trillion for Obama, says the Tax Policy Center, another nonpartisan group."
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:28pm
I'm not being an asshole. I'm not saying let them starve. I'm saying the responsility for subsidizing them belongs to the entire community and not just the corporate villian du jour.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 8:52pm
the same people make $8/hr doing the same thing in ontario.
but you like your slaves.
just one more way to hide inflation.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:30pm
If that is the moral price why aren't all Canadians assholes for not paying their migrant workers that price?
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008 @ 9:12pm
the workers get
a) room and board
b) health insurance
c) legal status.
and they get to go home.
they come back every year.
i DO think they should be paid more.
ever picked tomatoes?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:40pm
The city council vote was "unanimously approved"....OK! My question for Gods in LA is this: What about the middle and high income areas? Why shouldn't they be `protected' from new fast-food joints? Does this council action smacks of discrimination or worse, Racism? Aren't they saying low-income (read, minorities) folks are just too stupid?
Posted by 2HAPPY at 07/29/2008 @ 9:16pm
no, there aren't any supermarkets around.
nowhere to buy food.
in the suburbs, choices abound.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:42pm
US treasuries are paying that much for no default risk.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/29/2008
are you sure they are risk free?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 9:43pm
It has nothing to do with seeing people have better lives. I want that for all people.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 07/29/2008 @ 10:33pm
you mean like the kiddies who lose an arm because of your cluster bombs,
or the u.s. g.i. who gets rectal cancer because of your depleted uranium?
jesus thinks you suck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 10:51pm
"But I'm an uncaring asshole because I don't think a corporation should be blackmailed into paying a subsidy that is really the responsiblity of the entire population?"
don't bother hyperbolizing or anything. consumers asking their favorite restaurants to do, what in their minds is, the right thing.....is NOT blackmail. ok?
i would rather give my hard earned dollars to socially and environmentally responsible companies (i.e. those who think more about PEOPLE, rather than the bottome line). and if they are located within 100 miles of my home, all the better.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 11:11pm
in marybretbard's mind, companies that "do their math" are simply "better" companies. nevermind how they treat their employees, how much they pollute, or how little they give back to their communities.
it's all "mathematics" and "economics".
this is pretty much the very reason why more and more americans have rejected the neoconservative paradigm.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 11:13pm
it's all "mathematics" and "economics".
this is pretty much the very reason why more and more americans have rejected the neoconservative paradigm.
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 11:13pm
i thought it was because they were hungry and cold.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/29/2008 @ 11:15pm
Neoliberal policies such as NAFTA certainly contribute to the problems in Mexico as does its proximity to the US (cf. out-of-control Mexican drug violence), but the basic problem is the utter failure of the Mexican society. As Jomamma quite correctly points out, Mexico is blessed with tremendous potential--natural resources, an industrious population, an advantageous location between the rest of Latin America and the US.
Why has Mexico failed to do much with all those advantages? Why can't Mexico achieve the level of prosperity, democracy, and stability of, say, South Korea or Taiwan (countries without most of Mexico's advantages)? How about aiming even higher--why can't Mexico be like Canada? Canada is certainly among the greatest societies in the world by most measures, tho it does have its problems. Canada thrives on its great natural resources, educated population, deep democratic traditions, and great location next to the US.
Mexico's problems include but are by no means limited to: A selfish elite that is particularly dominant, rampant corruption from the top to the bottom of society, a rotten education system (keeping the campesinos plenty ignorant), lack of democracy, lack of respect for the rule of law, ham-handed socialism/dirigisme, a brutally violent and sexist culture (that can often be at least as banal and dysfunctional as anything north of the border), the utter inability to support its own population economically, serious ethnic and racial, strife, etc. Of course, much of this is the legacy of Spanish colonialism and of indigenous cultures, but, hey, one cannot simply blame one's ancestors for everything.
Allowing mass illegal immigration from Mexico into the US has hurt Mexico in many ways, notably by acting as a relief valve for popular discontent--if more Mexicans stayed home and did more to protest the rottenness of their society, then perhaps Mexico would become a better society.
Moreover, mass illegal immigration to the US is bringing not only the virtues of Mexican society but also many of the dangerous, destructive, anti-democratic vices aforementioned. Simply look at the most unstable, violent, impoverished parts of Mexifornia. That could be the dystopic future of the whole US. Hasta la vista, America! But then that's what the open-borders nihilists want....
Posted by feinfein at 07/29/2008 @ 11:32pm
"A grown man with intelligence, obvious ability in todays modern world and is satisfied on $18k a year is not someone I take real seriously."
why?
Posted by darladoon at 07/29/2008 @ 11:55pm
A grown man with intelligence, obvious ability in todays modern world and is satisfied on $18k a year is not someone I take real seriously.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 11:36pm
go jerk off with your bank statement.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:01am
"a man who "earns " $18 k a year in todays world is living on someone elses labors..and is in no position to tell others who earn more money how much and what they should be doing with it.."
why?
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:03am
man who "earns " $18 k a year in todays world is living on someone elses labors..
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/29/2008 @ 11:59pm
and please tell me how i am living on the labour of others.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:03am
there is simply no rational basis for arguing that people who make less than $18/year are living on someone else's labors.
and this comes from someone who:
a) owns a business
b) travels frequently
c) has a wife who cooks for him, and makes his babies
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:05am
maasch,don't you own a business?
aren't you living off someone else' labors/
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:07am
"and this comes from someone who:
a) owns a business
b) travels frequently
c) has a wife who cooks for him, and makes his babies"
that "someone" would be maasch, btw.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:08am
if someone pays taxes, and obeys the law of the land, then they have any say they want. period.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:13am
Neoliberal policies such as NAFTA certainly contribute to the problems in Mexico
you'll notice that illegal immigration took a HUGE upturn during the salinas government. why?
as does its proximity to the US (cf. out-of-control Mexican drug violence),
of course.
but the basic problem is the utter failure of the Mexican society.
they've been around a lot longer than yours.
As Jomamma quite correctly points out, Mexico is blessed with tremendous potential--natural resources, an industrious population, an advantageous location between the rest of Latin America and the US. Why has Mexico failed to do much with all those advantages? Why can't Mexico achieve the level of prosperity, democracy, and stability of, say, South Korea or Taiwan (countries without most of Mexico's advantages)?
73 years of u.s. backed pri kleptocracy.
How about aiming even higher--why can't Mexico be like Canada? Canada is certainly among the greatest societies in the world by most measures, tho it does have its problems. Canada thrives on its great natural resources, educated population, deep democratic traditions, and great location next to the US.
because the spanish weren't smart enough to kill off all them indians.
Mexico's problems include but are by no means limited to: A selfish elite that is particularly dominant,
of course.
rampant corruption from the top to the bottom of society,
sure thing, mr. kettle.
a rotten education system (keeping the campesinos plenty ignorant),
it's better than much of the u.s.
lack of democracy,
well, thank you, america. they did a better job than you guys in 2000
lack of respect for the rule of law,
well, at least they don't attack other countries or go to the mall and kill people.
ham-handed socialism/dirigisme,
and how about that capitalist fed? doing a heckuva job, Ώno?
a brutally violent and sexist culture
actually, i saw little violence in 10 years in mιxico. nothing like the u.s.
(that can often be at least as banal and dysfunctional as anything north of the border),
sure it can. so why don't you fix your own country?
the utter inability to support its own population economically,
hmmmm? when did that start?
serious ethnic and racial, strife, etc.
really, where?
Of course, much of this is the legacy of Spanish colonialism and of indigenous cultures,
stupid indians!
but, hey, one cannot simply blame one's ancestors for everything.
no, we can blame ignorant arrogance on the part of people like you.
Allowing mass illegal immigration from Mexico into the US has hurt Mexico in many ways, notably by acting as a relief valve for popular discontent--if more Mexicans stayed home and did more to protest the rottenness of their society, then perhaps Mexico would become a better society.
perhaps, if the u.s. hadn't meddled so much.
Moreover, mass illegal immigration to the US is bringing not only the virtues of Mexican society but also many of the dangerous, destructive, anti-democratic vices aforementioned.
eek! they will pollute that paragon of democracy, the u.s.
Simply look at the most unstable, violent, impoverished parts of Mexifornia.
have you ever thought that maybe the influence is the other way round? probably not.
That could be the dystopic future of the whole US.
oh, yeah. blame the mexicans. i hear they're terrorists, too.
Hasta la vista, America!
don't worry, the fed is taking care of that.
But then that's what the open-borders nihilists want....
that's right! you are Sioux, right?
Posted by loudobb's fool. at 07/29/2008 @ 11:32pm | ignore this person
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:22am
stupid mexicans,
so dumb and so poor.
stupid mexicans,
a perfect target for the perfect boor.
stupid mexicans,
so brown and so wet.
stupid mexicans,
there to blame for america's debt!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:28am
It has nothing to do with seeing people have better lives. I want that for all people. Posted by lvliberty1 at 07/29/2008 @ 10:33pm
The government shouldn't get involved in this one this should be left to consumers and employees. I agree with you yes chipotle is the end user. But sadly the easiest way to affect the people growing is through the people they are selling to. Stop Chipotle, Burger King, McDonald's from buying and the growers will change their act. It sucks for Chipotle but some companies try to investigate who they buy from. Chipotle goes so far as to call itself food with integrity. Shouldn't that mean that the people you buy from are treating their employees with integrity?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 12:32am
it's pretty clear that the lefties won this debate fair and square......it all goes back to peter's original point: if they are 'food with integrity', well then.......
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:40am
obviously,
many of the problems in mιxico lie squarely on the shoulder of mιxico's "elite".
yet, couldn't america,
exporter of "freedom",
have helped them for the last hundred years
instead of trying at every possible juncture to stifle prosperity of the common people there.
nah,
profits are profits.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:48am
" couldn't america, exporter of "freedom"," Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:48am
"Until China figures out how to stamp it out of plastic for 10 cents a unit."
-Unknown Comedian
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 01:19am
- Stephen Colbert
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 01:20am
Apparently, JOMAMMA, you have totally missed the point of this article, as have others who have carelessly posted their opinions on immigration (?). To be clear, this article addresses our concerns over labor conditions in the United States. To agree with what the author is saying is nothing more than to believe that hardworking people in this country deserve more than $50/day for more than 12 hours labor. You really have to be kidding me, or seriously in need of a reality check, if you believe that $10,000/year is sufficient. It's revolting what these companies get away with in the name of corporate greed, couched as business prerogative and savvy capitalism.
Posted by dfrnndz at 07/30/2008 @ 09:59am
Ug. Why does this not surprise me. I really like Chipotle, and I usually avoid fast food like the plague. I buy local food at the Greenmarket, organic, fair-trade food whenever I can. Chipotle has been a good alternative for several years for a hearty lunch at work. And no one on this thread has mentioned that Chipotle recent jacked up their prices by quite a lot. A year ago their veggie burrito (in New York) was $5.95; now it's $7.15. Don't tell me they can't afford to pay nonslave wages for tomatoes. I'll be visiting Chipotle again when they come to an agreement with the union. Sigh.
Posted by kkuchenb at 07/30/2008 @ 10:19am
"As far as Frosty living off others labors, MBB described it perfectly"
unfortunately, MBB's points would included jomamma himself, and MBB as well.
everyone, unless you are completely self-sufficient, lives off the labors of others. everyone.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:09pm
"Those of use who oppose the boycott are saying that demanding tomato farmers pay tomato pickers $11.25 an hour is the wrong solution"
nobody is asking for $11.25/hour. in fact, according to your (somewhat shoddy) math, they would be getting $6.25/hour (with a 1 cent pay increase).
and keep in mind, when you say "75% salary increase," we're talking about people making less than $6/hour.
we're not talking about 100s of middle managers making $30/hour.
or even 1000s of chipotle floor managers, who make $11/hour.
we're talking about the poorest of the poor.
and a 1 cent increase is the DEMAND, surely the company can meet them 1/2 way and settle at 1/2 of 1 cent per pound increase.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 12:16pm
The right solution is to expand welfare benefits for illegal immigrants.-----Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 10:44am
That's a surprising comment, Darin.
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/30/2008 @ 12:22pm
You, your wife, and your son receive medical care paid for by the Canadian government.
when? my son and i went once last year, my wife never. that's about $120
They also insure you against major medical losses.
everybody.
The cost for your family is probably about $5000 CDN per year.
well, the system exists, regardless. if we never use it..........
Your son attends public school. The cost is probably about $6000 CDN per year.
the cost of much of which is included in my rent.
Your home is protected by police and fire departments, and court system, not to mention the national military.
i pay 13% sales tax on most things i buy. military? get them the heck out of kandahar and save my "benefactors" some coin.
Some portion of Canada's cost for the UN could be attributed to your family.
but not to yours!
You have a better quality of life because of your nation's department of natural resources and arts council.
gutted under viceroy harper.
You have a better quality of life because of Canada's roads and airports.
which i pay for when i fill up the pollution machine with petrol.
Also, you have a better quality of life because Canada's pension system greatly reduces the economic uncertainty you'd face from the risk of living past the age of being able to continue to serve people with your music.
which is why i pay my CPP
The national system for Canada is much more progressive than the US's system. A person in his thirties making 18k a year is probably accruing a benefit of about $4000 per year.
i don't always make 18k. anywhere from 15-40.
You are receiving government benefits of about 18k per year from the government.
not really.
Needless to say, you are not paying 18k in taxes. Those benefits arise from taxing the productive efforts of individuals who earn more than 50k per year. That is how you are living off the labors of others.
and they live off of mine. when i play i party for some "real" taxpayers, they always do there best to underpay me. should i now abandon music to become a lawyer?
Having answered your question, I have to say that I disagree with Jommama. I take you real seriously.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 09:00am
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:27pm
People with illegal status will always be susceptible to unscrupulous people.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
so, give them temporary status.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:32pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
February 3, 2005
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
so, which is a bigger strain on the financial system?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:34pm
The federal government of Canada taxes the entire population of Canada to provide health care to the immigrant workers.
including the migrant workers.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:35pm
education,
decimated in the u.s.
rule of law,
not applicable to the white house, pentagon or justice department.
democratic government,
you mean like 2000?
and property rights.
you mean like pentagon data mining?
Attacking the foundations of our civilization is no way to help a tiny segment of the poor.
nor preserve a republic.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:39pm
ok, this is a case in point for immigration reform. When I hear "undocumented workers" I see "slave Labor". We need a good sustainable migrant farm worker program that treats people with dignity and pays them livable wages. We also need to come DOWN LIKE THE HAMMER OF GOD on the slave shop owners, who exploit people desperate to feed their families.
Posted by SoundGuyChris at 07/30/2008 @ 12:43pm
funny thing, darin.
i lived in mexico for ten years and my standard of living there was exactly the same as it is here.
how could that be?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 12:51pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 11:56am
The emlpoyer doesn't subsidizer him. In a free market economy the consumer subsidizes him. The cost of employment is passed on to the consumer. It doesn't come directly out of the pocket of the employer. That was my point about the tomato pickers. If their costs go up 1 penny per pound. The tomato growers will pass it on to Chipotle and we will see a rise in a fractional cent per burrito. Chipotle nor the tomato grower will be punished because their profits will stay the same. The consumers will pay a slight increase for their burrito.
The business owner never subsidizes anything. They just pass the cost along to the consumer. Which means consumers, society, pays the cost of this persons living.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 12:54pm
"Throughout my life so far, the value of wealth created by me (admittedly, with the help of others) far, far exceeds the amount of wealth I and my family have consumed"
this is an absolutely ridiculous statement, given the fact that you have admitted to:
a) owning and driving a car
b) working in an office
c) having a busy work/travel schedule
d) having a family
how can you be sure of the full effects of your lifestyle, and your family's lifestyle?
if a woman, like myself, who owns no car, and who grows 75% of her own food and 100% of her own herbs, who collects rainwater for re-use, who travels nowhere by plane or train, who shares her kitchen and internet and shower, shares solar power, and most importantly, who makes less than $18,000/year, be more of a burden than someone like you?
i'm not criticizing you, i'm just sayin'......this argument that people like yourself give more, and take less, is preposterous.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 1:01pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 11:56am
Also rarely in my experience does the increase in cost concur with a drop in the pocket of emlpoyers. Look at oil companies. The cost of oil went up all of a sudden all the oil companies whose costs went up were making record profits. Why? Because like most companies not only did they pass the cost of the increased oil to the consumer, which is the proper thing to do, they passed on extra costs MASKED as the increased cost per barrel.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 1:03pm
i'm not criticizing you, i'm just sayin'......this argument that people like yourself give more, and take less, is preposterous.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 1:01pm
hear! hear!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 1:12pm
That's how you can be sure.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
and you create 3,000% more pollution.
thank you.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 1:13pm
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 1:07pm
It's better to create them through shame. Chosen price controls are easy to change that government ones. Like I said. If the consumer is WILLING to pay the extra fractional penny per pound then why is it that Chipotle should stand in their way? If they are truly a company of integrity then they would give the consumer what they want. Free market capitalism DOES work when the consumer actually cares where and how their products are being made.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 07/30/2008 @ 1:34pm
Given that Darla's polution is zero, 3000% of zero would still be zero. I was actually more than that.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 1:26pm
darla's pollution isn't zero.
that's impossible.
your pollution is 3000% more than mine.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 1:39pm
that gave us the current system of employee provided health care that is failing the poor Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
You don't care a rat's ass for the poor & I KNOW you don't want universal single payer health care.
Posted by Sorelish at 07/30/2008 @ 1:51pm
Posted by Sorelish at 07/30/2008 @ 1:51pm
Wait a minute, Sorelish....get MBB/Darin to explain this comment-
The right solution is to expand welfare benefits for illegal immigrants.-----Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 10:44am
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/30/2008 @ 2:51pm
jm and darin.
don't you receive benefit far beyond what you pay in taxes?
otherwise, why would your government have $10,000,000,000,000 in debt?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 2:53pm
" Furthermore, I give about $15,000 a year to charities.
That's how you can be sure."
sure, but that doesn't mean that, just because you give what you are *supposed* to give (by law), you necessarily take less in return.
do you drive a car to work everyday? how far?
how often do you travel by air?
what's your monthly electric bill?
do you buy your food from local farms?
again, i'm not out to get you, i'm just trying to prove why you actually may end up taking more than others who earn a lot less than you do.
earning more usually means consuming more.
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 5:31pm
(Despite all the doom and gloom out of the MSM, we are not in a recession as we have not had any quarters of economic decline yet, and the projected growth for the year is a disappointing, yet non-negative 1.6%)
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 5:55pm | ignore this person
well a liquid fed sure helps.
at least until january.
regarde:
this graph compares the fed's election-year rates varied from nonelection years when the incumbent was either replub or demoocrat:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/recession-bar-chart.jpg
PRINT AWAY!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 8:17pm
I think Frosty hit on it. In Ontario migrant workers are given room and board, the federal government provides health insurance, and they have legal status.
of course i did :] but it's not subsidy. these people subsidize the tomatoes! plus, they pay lots of taxes AND ARE A HUGE BOON TO THE LOCAL ECONOMY.
There are those on my "side of the aisle" who say enforce the boarders and deport every last one of the illegal immigrants. I don't agree with them.
no, they should have legal status from the start.
American has a long tradition of education, rule of law, property rights, and democratic government.
usually. at least inside america. its dealings on the outside can often be seen in a different light.
Our particular combination of these things, coupled with the drive that accompanies the immigrants that came to America in the past to seek a better life,
yay!
has made us the wealthiest nation on earth.
well, pushing people around sure has helped. and receiving half of mιxico for pennies from a corrupt dictator sure helped. ever heard of texas?
The amount of welfare a society can/will afford to spend subsidizing the poor is an increasing function of wealth.
excellent. where do we sign up?
However, the more you subsidize the less wealth you create.
wealth is the earth. it's already there.
A society needs to find the right balance.
well, duh!
There are poorer countries in Europe that subsidize more than America,
and the majority like it that way.
that have seen their economic growth seriously curtailed.
you mean so they only have 2 ipods instead of 7?
The vast imbalance of economic opportunity across the southern boarder creates a steady "pressure" on immigration.
sure does. but why is it imbalanced? -- corrupt "elites" in mexico helped by corrupt "elites" in the u.s. (amongst others -- i can get you links to nasty canadians if you wish)
I don't think we can "dam" it up without it bursting and causing tremendous damage.
it can't be dammed, period.
Demography is destiny and the cultures of the southern US and Mexico are melding and the boarder is becoming less relevant for culture and trade.
cool. mexican food is great. did you know that the birth rates of mexico and the u.s. will be the same in ten years?
Long, long-term the answer is to export education, rule of law, property rights, and democratic government south of the boarder (I know they already have these things, they just need some help with the political corruption*******. I just listed them all to make sure everybody knew I was talking about PJ O'Rourke's book.) and the economic progress will follow and the imbalance will end eventually.
everywhere, one hopes.
In the near term, I think McCain's talk about guest workers is step in the right direction.
well, duh!
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 5:55pm | ignore this person
btw. being an illegal in mexico is more difficult than being one in the u.s. (it seems).
********** don't you think the cia et. al had just a little to do with keeping the pri in power for so long? who cares if it's a one-party state if they're not commies?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 8:50pm
btw once again 'scuse the insults.
not nice.
i do understand the need for economic reasoning in terms of public policy
(but what could be more non-sensical than fiat money?).
however, what point does economics serve if it is not used to benefit humans?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 8:53pm
Then, I want a law passed that mandates every person who can afford health care is legally required to buy health insurance. This would be just like the law against driving without auto insurance.
why not cut out the middle man? in canadian jurisdiction with government run auto insurance, premiums are much lower. i think the people are equally insured and the system are solvent.
I believe this is similar to Obama's plan except he wouldn't make it mandatory. Clinton was closer to me in making it madatory.
well, before you do that, you'd better stop eating all that cornsoyameat trash.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 9:09pm
I drive about 45 miles round trip to work each day I am in the office and on a number of weekends. I average about 18,000 miles a year. Last year I flew around the world twice (my employer paid about $20,000 for this), and about a dozen other round trip flights within North America. My monthly electric bill probably averages $120. The gas bill probably averages $100. I purchase about 95% of my meals at the time I eat them from fast food and other restaurants.
egad!
don't you realize that if a 7 billion of us lived like that,
even jupiter wouldn't be big enough!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 9:39pm
I will admit to feeling an unchristian amount of pride in the fact that I am definitely pulling my own weight and that of my family.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
me, too. although they sure pull me, too.
we're very happy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 9:40pm
So, I generate $250,000 in wealth,
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
are you sure?
what is that wealth really worth in a fiat monetary system?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 9:41pm
ALGORE
Posted by JOMAMMA at 07/30/2008 @ 7:42pm
quite a strange fetish you have......
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/30/2008 @ 9:45pm
So, I generate $250,000 in wealth,Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008
So, if someone sits on his ass long enough, a golden egg will appear? Make sure your local constabulary is well funded, those robot tomato pickers might rebel.
Posted by Sorelish at 07/30/2008 @ 11:02pm
"I drive about 45 miles round trip to work each day I am in the office and on a number of weekends. I average about 18,000 miles a year. Last year I flew around the world twice (my employer paid about $20,000 for this), and about a dozen other round trip flights within North America. My monthly electric bill probably averages $120. The gas bill probably averages $100. I purchase about 95% of my meals at the time I eat them from fast food and other restaurants"
that's sad. and you and i have nothing in common.
oh well. not surprising.
"And you contribute to global warming...you need to pay ALGORE for the carbon you waste with your capitalistic imperialist life style. You also need to pay reparwtions and you should learn Spanish..I'll bet you are a church nut, too"
jomamma clearly misunderstood the point: mbb claimed that she 'gave back' more than she 'took' from society, but from the looks of it, it's obvious that she takes A LOT from society. you may think that driving 18,000 miles a year isn't a big deal, but according to the scientific data, carbon emissions have put all earthlings in a very unfortunate position.
18,000/miles a year is a HUGE carbon footprint. and that's just driving. i noticed her gas and electric bills are simply enormous, compared to someone like me (who, in your own words, you wouldn't take seriously).
i'm not criticizing mbb, i'm just sayin' that, despite her claim that she "gives back" quite a bit.....she certainly pollutes an awful lot (not surprising for someone who makes a great deal of money).
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 11:36pm
(not surprising for someone who makes a great deal of money).
Posted by darladoon at 07/30/2008 @ 11:36pm
fuck music!
i'm gonna make me some wealth by investing in derivatively hedged market debt bonds backed by treasury statements of itsallgood.....
then i can take my new found wealth and buy lots of hydrocarbons and burn them so i can buy more hydrocarbons and buy them!!!!!!
hmmm.......
ethanol looks good, too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 12:38am
and buy them!!!!!!
and BURN them!!!!!!
i'm gettin' all emo$hunul.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 12:40am
Manitoba women picking blueberries say they saw sasquatch
By THE CANADIAN PRESS
hey, darla.
you're missing all the fun.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 02:34am
And Ms. Greene, of Avondale Partners, said that financing was also starting to dry up for ailing restaurant chains. "Banks have become less willing to lend to restaurants and franchisees," she said. "The business fundamentals just do not support it right now."
ah, the bubble hath bursteth.
PRINT MORE!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 03:04am
Partly to accommodate the rescue plan for the mortgage companies, the bill raises the national debt ceiling to $10.6 trillion, an increase of $800 billion. The bill also creates significant liabilities and risks for taxpayers, that are virtually impossible to calculate.
PRINT MORE!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 03:06am
The budget office has estimated that 35 percent of the refinanced loans will end up in trouble again.
well, golly!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 03:08am
an arrangement that critics say privatizes the profits but socializes the risk and any losses.
hmmmmmm?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 03:10am
In the near term, I think McCain's talk about guest workers is step in the right direction.----Posted by marybretbrad at 07/30/2008 @ 5:55pm
Well, the thing is...he's kind of "forgot" that talk lately (along with "pathway to citizenship")...
because his RIO, PONTI, etc. base calls it "amnesty fer them durn illegals" and he's holding onto them now with spit, baling wire, and fear of the "communist angry black guy".
If he talks too much about stuff like that...they'll figure out he's going to sell them out if he gets elected.
Posted by Maskdelta at 07/31/2008 @ 09:02am
We took a lot more from the Native Americans than we did from Mexico, but, of course, Canadians have a little experience with that as well. I've heard that a tongue-in-cheek criticism of the US in Mexico is that the problem isn't that the US took half the country, it's that they took the half that has all the paved roads in it.
nice squares! and canadians have robbed mexicans, too. you should see the canadian owned gold mines in hidalgo. arsenic, cyanide, lead everywhere. mexicans ARE native americans (well, mostly)
No, wealth is order. A rock, a stick, and a vine exist. When I crack the rock to give it a sharp edge, and then used the vine to tie it to the stick to give me greater leverage for chopping fire wood, I have created an axe. The three components assembled into an axe have more value than the three things sitting in a pile. By assembling them, I have created wealth. The law of entropy states that the general nature of the universe is for systems of order to degenerate into systems of disorder. A destruction of wealth.
fair enough. but the source of the wealth is only one place. and because our monetary system is no longer linked to earth generated wealth but to human reputation, it has given us the "means" to surpass reasonable methods of extraction of said wealth. perhaps i'm rambling. compare global temperature rise to the rise in u.s. debt.
You are absolutely right. The mindless consumerism is definitely an unintended and destructive consequence of our modern society. Yet I don't know how to create the advances in farming that has reduced hunger, the advances in bio-technology that has created heartier seeds, the medical technology that can transplant human hearts and create a pill that reverses Alzheimer's Syndrome without also tolerating video games, Monster truck rallies and theme parks.
i do. invest more in education and less in cluster bombs.
Posted by marybretbrad at 07/31/2008 @ 07:51am
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:43am
I do not perform a lot of physical labor, but just enough to impress myself that those who do perform prodigious amounts of labor must be compensated fairly. Most who perform this work would want at some time to move into a less debilitating form of employment. Better compensation is the answer. This can allow for a much deserved early retirement for some; movement "up the ladder", for others.. For those phonies who bring up their summer experiences doing manual labor, for many just an exercise in athletics, I say bullshit! Try working a lifetime in support of your family doing the "work" that got you through college.
Posted by Sorelish at 07/31/2008 @ 1:55pm
Yep! I'm NOW, a certifiable `Concerned Diner' of things hand-picked, by other-than-Whole-Food-sourced produce!
Posted by 2HAPPY at 07/31/2008 @ 4:18pm
well good for you for supporting local businesses.
(start recycling, you lazy houstonian)
the answer is to create a society where people are valued as people, not widgets.
food is more important than medical care. so why should doctors make so much more? yes, they go to school blah, blah, and anybody can plant a seed.
but can just anybody plant millions of seeds and get them to become the bounty that farmers give us?
and can just anybody labour 14 hours under scorching sun picking tons of food?
these people are more important than any million dollar baseball player.
food is more important.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 6:59pm
When I was a younger-much younger-Liberal WASP I went out to pick cucumbers to show solidarity with my migrant brothers and sisters. It was brutally hot in the fields, we all were stung and bitten by bees and bugs, the cukes made my hands bleed. One "worker" who had to have been all of twelve told me the fingers and palms toughen up within a couple of weeks. I'll never know because I lasted exactly six days. All this and I was paid twice as much as they were for my trouble.
Things have improved some, but anyone who thinks migrant workers are overpaid or deserve only minimum wage should try doing their job for eight hours. The work the kids and grandparents do would literally kill most of us. This fuels a lot of the anti-immigration sentiment. They are willing to work incredibly hard for the American dream and it scares the crap out of us.
Posted by Pogge at 07/31/2008 @ 10:17pm
Posted by 2HAPPY at 07/31/2008 @ 7:19pm
garbage is money.
<<<<Michael Shapiro, director of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Office of Solid Waste, also weighed in on the benefits of recycling:
"A well-run curbside recycling program can cost anywhere from $50 to more than $150 per ton trash collection and disposal programs, on the other hand, cost anywhere from $70 to more than $200 per ton. This demonstrates that, while there's still room for improvements, recycling can be cost-effective.">>>>
plus, if the truck is there for garbage or recycling, it's there.
HOW MUCH SENSE DOES IT MAKE TO FIGHT WARS FOR OIL SO YOU CAN USE A PLASTIC BOTTLE FOR 37 SECONDS AND THEN BURY IT?
We don't lack land for use as landfills! -- NOW. THE CITY OF TORONTO The Carleton Farms Landfill is located in Sumpter Township of Wayne County in the U.S. state of Michigan. The landfill sits on 664 acres (2.69 km²) of property and has a solid waste boundary of 388 acres (1.57 km²). It is owned by Republic Services, Inc., and is about 30 miles (48 km) west of Detroit. As of September, 2005, one million tons of waste is shipped from Toronto, Ontario in Canada to the Carleton Farms Landfill annually. This site accounts for about 10% of Michigan's total waste.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 10:50pm
here,
read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/us/29recycle.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 10:53pm
According to a recent nationwide online survey, 72 percent of the American public does not know that conventional plastic is made from petroleum products, primarily oil.
Moreover, 40 percent of the respondents believe that plastic will biodegrade at some point.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 10:57pm
Published: Sunday, August 28, 2005
While oil hit $66 per barrel recently, almost double the price of a year ago, a shipment of milk jugs has climbed to 28 cents per pound, up from about 15 cents a pound, Powell said.
"Within the last six months, many resins" - various kinds of recycled plastic - "hit record prices, as has happened with oil," Powell said.
$66 per barrel!!!!!!!!!
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:01pm
Then, Alex Cohen talks to Tom Duffy, CEO of Plastic Components Inc. According to Duffy, the price of oil is driving small and mid-sized plastic molding companies out of business.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:03pm
Giant microwave turns plastic back to oil
17:44 26 June 2007
NewScientist.com news service
Catherine Brahic
A US company is taking plastics recycling to another level turning them back into the oil they were made from, and gas.
All that is needed, claims Global Resource Corporation (GRC), is a finely tuned microwave and hey presto! a mix of materials that were made from oil can be reduced back to oil and combustible gas (and a few leftovers).
Similarly, running 9.1 kilograms of ground-up tyres through the Hawk-10 produces 4.54 litres of diesel oil, 1.42 cubic metres of combustible gas, 1 kg of steel and 3.40 kg of carbon black, Meddick says.
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:06pm
We import nearly 58 percent of all petroleum, yet only 45 percent of each barrel is used to produce gasoline, and a significant portion of that gasoline is used in delivery vans and taxis.
Commuter and leisure driving accounts for little more than 40 percent of the oil we consume -- far less than the amount we import.
The rest of each barrel of crude is used for heating oil and diesel fuel for trucks, busses, farm machinery and ships (23 percent), PETROCHEMICALS (17 PERCENT), jet fuel (9 percent), asphalt (4 percent) and propane (4 percent).
CATO STATS.
17 FRIKKIN' PER CENT FOR PLASTIC THAT YOU BURY!?!?!??!??!?!??!?!?
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:10pm
now,
start recycling, you lazy houstonian.
<i>the lazy one works twice as hard</i>
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/31/2008 @ 11:11pm
OK, marybretbrad, if I concede that you are a superior human being with superior knowledge, would YOU come up with a reasonable solution to the problem of grossly underpaid illegal labor picking most of America's crops? I'd like to know what YOU would do to solve the problem. Unless you don't see the exploitation of your inferiors to be a problem?
Posted by notbuyingit at 08/01/2008 @ 3:53pm