Act Now!

Bush v. Children

posted by Peter Rothberg on 10/07/2007 @ 09:34am

The State Children's Health Insurance Program was created by the federal government in 1997 to provide medical insurance coverage for children of families with annual incomes too large to qualify for Medicaid but too small to afford private insurance. The legislation currently insures more than six million children who would otherwise lack coverage. An individual is eligible until age 18 if his or her family income is above Medicaid thresholds but below a total income of $41,300 for a family of four.

The original legislation expired on September 30 and required reauthorization. The Senate and House quickly agreed on a compromise to continue SCHIP by large margins as well as to increase funding to enhance the efficacy of the program.

As promised, President Bush vetoed the bill Wednesday, calling the proposal fiscally irresponsible and an attempt to "federalize medicine." This from a president who has been one of the most profligate spenders in history. The fact is that this veto is yet another example of his administration's never-ending efforts to ignore the truth for the sake of promoting misguided ideological principles.

SCHIP has been successful. Enrollees in SCHIP have been demonstrated to have improved access to higher quality health care. But facts didn't matter enough to Bush as he killed a bipartisan bill. However facts should matter to members of Congress who have the power to override his veto, as a very good editorial in the October 6 Kansas City Star argued. The main point is that "the chronically underfunded 10-year-old SCHIP has made remarkable inroads. It has reduced by a third the uninsurance rate of low-income children whose families don't qualify for Medicaid but can't afford private insurance." As the editorial concludes, "President Bush's veto should not stand. Lawmakers who voted 'no' should reconsider and help override it. If they use the facts as a guide, they will."

Bush is expecting House conservatives to sustain his veto. But significant political pressure--if not reason and morality--can undermine his hopes. Kids might have something to say about it too, as a new video produced by the Campaign for America's Future makes amusingly clear. Watch the video below and click here to learn the facts about SCHIP.

Then, go to CAF's action page and send a message to your Representative in the House imploring him/her to stand up for our kids, stand up to George Bush, and override the veto.

Comments (143)

  1. PETER,

    As you may know, I'm no fan of "universal health care" from the Fed (though I also acknowledge at this point, it's probably inevitable...and I think inevitably as bad or worse than what we have now)....BUT...

    as far as a fiscal conservative as myself goes, versus the spending we've done in Iraq, SCHIP would be more responsible and fiscally useful.

    The figure I heard was that we could cover 10 million kids for a YEAR.....or spend what we spend in Iraq for 40 DAYS.

    As long as it didn't KILL anybody, that would mean SCHIP would, from a purely cost-benefit analysis, be a 1000X better.

    Posted by Mask at 10/07/2007 @ 09:57am

  2. George W. Loser understands that if a low-income seven year old wants health care he or she should have been born to multi-millionaire, ultra politically-connected parents just like Loser was -- or go out and get a job and pay for said healthcare. Hey kid, they're hiring in India. 80 hours a week worth, chop chop.

    What the hell is wrong with these uppity, brazen kids who don't know the value of a buck -- or the value of a rupee, for that matter?

    It would be better still if the uppity and brazen kids who whine about healthcare would sign up for a couple of tours of duty in Iraq. They're hiring too -- although it is a literal dead end job, but one can get health care, in the style of Walter-Reed-in-the-George-W.-Loser era, which is better than nothing. "Get a job" as rightwing sage JOHN MAASCH would say, "preferably one that I would never do, such as wearing the armed forces uniform".

    CPT could help out here usefully -- unless he is too busy "recruiting" from a wide stance via foot tap codes in our nation's men's rooms.

    Posted by John_Shaft at 10/07/2007 @ 11:11am

  3. MASK is a great guy who has good health insurance...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 11:30am

  4. As an ex-patriot living in Denmark I am always bemused with the distinctly "American" view on universal health care. In Denmark, as in most of the industrialized world, everybody is covered from birth to death by the state run health care system. I get sick, I go to the doctor, I get diagnosed and treated and this costs me nothing. If I have an accident or get seriously ill and have to go lie in hospital for and extended period, have surgery or any other major procedure and it cost me nothing.

    But wait you say, "Do you not have to wait an exceedingly long time to get treatment in such a system?" The simple answer is no. If you need surgery or treatment right away, disability, worsened condition or death being the result of waiting, then you get surgery or treatment right away.

    As an example if you are out playing tennis and blow out your knee you are going to get your surgery quickly and put on the road to re-habilitation quickly. If on the other hand you have elected to have knee replacement surgery for a worn down knee the you will be put on a waiting list and treated as soon as possible. This is called prioritizing and it is what any well prepared society or person does to get the most out of any given situation.

    The health statistics don't lie, by any measure the USA is behind the rest of the industrialized world in taking care of its people. The WHO, AMA, OECD and any other organization measuring the health of countries around the world all reach the same conclusion, that the USA only leads in terms of the amount of money spent on healthcare, which only serves to make the failures of the "American" system even more glaring.

    There are things I miss from the USA but the lack of a healthcare system predicated on the idea that preventing illness and geared towards serving the people's, rather than corporations' needs is not one of them.

    Posted by agausemel at 10/07/2007 @ 11:47am

  5. Posted by AGAUSEMEL 10/07/2007 @ 11:47am

    Obviously DaneGuy, you have spent too much time mindlessly repeating everything that Type II Diabetes-in-waiting America hater Micheal Moore says in his propaganda screeds -- that is, if you are not quaffing 199-proof French elitism. You need a good strong dose of POX News augmented with the Oracular visions conjured up by Rush Bimbo when he's high as a kite in order to be re-aligned with reality (ie., against the "reality based community").

    The Euro/Canadien health care model better than the US version? Having the gall to cite George W. Loser-hating UN agencies like the WHO that are merely jealous of the private sector's method of ruining and bankrupting people foolish enough to have had an accident? Contemptible and America-hating, that's all I can tell you, effete DaneGuy.

    While we are on this topic, haven't you heard that climate change is a hoax launced by a cabal of socialist scientists? That the smoking gun may be Saddam's mushroom cloud -- or maybe it's a mushroom caserole, same difference? That the insurgency is in its "last throes" because the Maximum CheerLeader cross-dresed and told us that "major combat missions have ended"? That Iraq's reconstruction will fund itself while we "know" where the WMDs are located? That 9/11 could never have happend without the moral connivance of lesbians and feminists in NYC and in the vicinity of the Pentagon? That George W. Loser will "restore" integrity (that had never been previously lost) to US institutions via a "humble foriegn policy"?

    Yes, surely you need to gorge on freedom fries, on cro-mag JOHN MAASCH beerfart-propelled posts, POX News and Rush out of his mind intoxicated in order to see clearly what the "reality based community" is missing...

    Posted by John_Shaft at 10/07/2007 @ 12:26pm

  6. lack of universal healthcare KILLS.

    stock market/ceo profits UP UP UP!

    median income DOWN DOWN DOWN!

    enough money for stupid war, for buzillion dollar ceo salary/perks...

    BUT SORRY SCHMUKS...YOU DIE! CANT (LIKE COSTA RICA) AFFORD UNIVERSAL COVERAGE!

    BULLSHIT!

    but but but...gubbament bad...waste...bad...

    yeah, and no graft/waste whatsoever in private managed healthcare...RUNS LIKE A TOP! NO WASTAGE AT ALL!

    BULLSHIT! PRIVATELY MANAGED HEALTHCARE KILLS!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 12:33pm

  7. CEO GUBBAMENT KILLS! CORPORATE FEAUDALISM KILLS! KEEP VOTING FOR YOUR DESTROYERS, SCHMUK NATION!

    CLASS WARFARE...CEO'S KILL YOU FOR PROFIT!

    WAKE UP!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 12:35pm

  8. "calling the proposal fiscally irresponsible"

    from mr. frugal himself.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 2:19pm

  9. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 2:21pm

  10. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 11:30am

    IBBLE, I don't have dental and my co-pays for an illness my wife had and medications for my kid runs me a fair amount.

    But that doesn't mean a Federally-run UHC can't be WORSE. Sure, 48 million are uninsured, and to them having their health care brought up from a "10" to a "30" is a 200% increase....

    but for the REST of us getting our health care dragged down from an "80" to a "30", justs doesn't seem that pleasing.

    But regardless, if Hillary or whoever creates UHC, and it costs no more than HALF A TRILLION over 4 years and DOESN'T kill 3808 Americans in that time....it's a MUCH better deal than Iraq....no?

    Posted by Mask at 10/07/2007 @ 2:29pm

  11. Posted by MASK 10/07/2007 @ 2:29pm

    but it goes beyond the 48 mil uninsured. worst even than the underinsured are the bullshittily insured and uninsurable as a result of pre-existing conditions.

    i look at the stats and see the following...

    we spend more per person on healthcare than any other country in the world yet are nowhere near the top in terms of quality or percentage of population covered (well).

    SOUNDS LIKE LOTS OF WASTE AND CORRUPTION. HOW DO THE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE SYSTEMS OF EUROPE MANAGE TO PROVIDE BETTER CARE, LESS EXPENSIVELY IF GUBBAMENT ALWAYS BAD/PRIVATE ALWAYS BETTER?

    i just dont accept your premise that gubbament involvement = worse care...

    looks like evidence suggests exactly the opposite.

    if you have the money, you have great health care. if not, you dont...

    its a national embarassment when costa rica can assure its people good healthcare and we "cannot".

    going back to school myself, no insurance (and not sure its worth it to get some bullshit policy to feel better about supposedly being "insured")...living day by day...dont want to go to doc and find out about a condition that precludes me from "affordable" insurance in future...oh well - nobody lives forever.

    wonder how many people with sketchy insurance avoid doctor visits out of fear of becoming uninsurable?

    so its not just the uninsured suffering...

    sure, guess it could be worse...could be zimbabwe or mexico...or iraq...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 3:19pm

  12. Democrats, Americans are tired of bi-partisanship, Americans want the Democrats to show some courage, Americans want all-out war against Republicans, Americans are tired of respect, Americans expect more than some middle of the road disagreement about health care. Americans want Bush's war against Iran prevented, and Americans expect Democrats to prevent it.

    Posted by conshame at 10/07/2007 @ 3:19pm

  13. we spend more per person on healthcare than any other country in the world yet are nowhere near the top in terms of quality or percentage of population covered (well).

    by ibblblelbelbeble

    double, actually.......................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 3:30pm

  14. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 3:19pm

    ya know, uninsured americans have been coming to canada and getting health care.

    and then skipping out without paying....................

    to the tune of millions of dollars.

    looks like WE"LL be constructing the border fence soon..........................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 3:36pm

  15. if Hillary...............

    by mask

    now, THAT'S dreaming in colour.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 3:52pm

  16. but for the REST of us getting our health care dragged down from an "80" to a "30", justs doesn't seem that pleasing.

    by mask

    well, americans are pretty smart.

    if we can achieve an 87 (frosty grade) here, youse can do just as good.

    this past friday, my son underwent a test (we're pretty sure he'll be o.k.--all fingers crossed are appreciated) that costs around $1300 in the u.s.

    i'll give all the people who helped us with this extensive procedure a grade of 102 because the service was excellent.

    without our health care, we would only be left worrying. and waiting.

    it's not free. we pay taxes.

    it's not perfect. what is?

    but i wouldn't change it for anything privatized.

    never.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 3:59pm

  17. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/07/2007 @ 3:36pm

    hey man...mind if i crash at yer pad for a little?

    i promise not to eat all your food or make too many long distance calls...but ow...my appendix...

    lol

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 4:40pm

  18. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 4:40pm

    anytime, brotherly

    the only thing that worries me is that you'll hog this internet connection!

    it's a hot, hot, october day.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 4:51pm

  19. Posted by JOHN_SHAFT 10/07/2007 @ 11:11am |

    Are you employed at all?

    Posted by john maasch at 10/07/2007 @ 5:47pm

  20. "Democrats, Americans are tired of bi-partisanship, Americans want the Democrats to show some courage, Americans want all-out war against Republicans, Americans are tired of respect, Americans expect more than some middle of the road disagreement about health care. Americans want Bush's war against Iran prevented, and Americans expect Democrats to prevent it.

    Posted by CONSHAME 10/07/2007 @ 3:19pm

    Sounds like another night of sleep deprevation for our resident nut case.

    Posted by john maasch at 10/07/2007 @ 5:49pm

  21. Mask,

    We will have Nation health care, it will be shitty sevice and care, it will kill people, and the clowns like CONSHITFORBRAINS and JOHN_IWILLSHAFTANYONE WHO MAKES a decent living will use it and say it is fair,..the problem is, the cost will be outrageous, the program will be unioniesd up one side and down the other..it will resemble the TSA and Post Office combined...and the usual suspects will love it...saying the wrong people are the ones running it should it fail...they will just throw more of other peoples money at it...

    Hillary will not use it, I will not use it,and anyone with a brain will quickly look for another way out of the system, causing Hillary to make it manditory.. it is coming at us like a run away train.

    Posted by john maasch at 10/07/2007 @ 5:57pm

  22. As far as Denmark, the tax rates will reflect the cost of the free care, they do not have 300 million to cover, they do not have a 5% or more of their population immigrating from a totaly different culture with exploding birth rates demanding converage for all...shouls all conditions exsit in Denmark on a relative scale as we have in America today, then Denmark would have folded decades ago.

    Posted by john maasch at 10/07/2007 @ 6:00pm

  23. Few have a big problem with helping out really needy children from genuinely poor families....but we will get more of the below--a family that claimed $45,000 in annual income--as SCHIP income criterias are raised and 25 yrs-old `children' are added.....

    3,000 square foot home, but cannot ‘afford' health insurance?

    Remember the Frost family of Baltimore? They had a bad traffic accident 3 years ago. Their medical bills were paid by the taxpayer-subsidized SCHIP. Democrats trotted out Graeme Frost, 12, to call the president mean for not expanding the program beyond what he was willing to expand it.

    But all is not what it seems. Based on a sympathetic Baltimore Sun story -- reporters never question "victims" -- a blogger did some snooping around.

    Brutally Honest found that the Frosts (check out the kitchen) live in a 3,000-square-foot house in the Butchers Hill historic district of Baltimore.

    The children attend the private Park School, where tuition is $20,000 a year each. Maybe that is subsidized. Interesting that public schools aren't good enough for their kids but public health insurance is.

    The Frosts contend they live on $45,000 and cannot afford health insurance. He's a self-employed woodworker.

    And they appear to be land rich, cash poor. He bought a building for $190,000 in 1999 and their house mortgage appears to be worth $200,000.

    Observed Brutally Honest: "Bush's political machine needs to get the message out that when the government is spending money on those who really don't need the help, the truly needy are passed over."

    This business of "affordable insurance" is socialistic. The Frosts found an "affordable" business building and an "affordable" 3,000-square foot house and an "affordable" private school. Why couldn't these yuppies afford to cover their own damned kids?

    Posted by Happy at 10/07/2007 @ 7:13pm

  24. god, maasch is f*cking hilariously out of touch with the reality of health care in this world. poll after poll after poll put the united states in the 25-35 range, whereas EVERY WESTERN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY is ahead of us, as is CUBA (a COMMUNIST COUNTRY). and not only that, but EVERY scandinavian country places way higher than the usa in terms of air/water quality, education, and longevity.

    and yet, according to maasch, it is "higher taxes" which will destroy our glorious way of life.

    higher taxes, and ONLY higher taxes, will strengthen and preserve the middle class, extend the lives and welfare of the majority of american people, and sustain the dominance of the united states in the long term.

    clearly (!), the maasch-ian worldview does not work. there are mountains of evidence everywhere to prove it.

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 7:15pm

  25. does maasch wish to question the validity of the UN-sponsored polls which judge the quality of life in the united states? the overwhelming conclusion is that life in the united states is as good as, say, bulgaria or poland, despite our enormous wealth and priviledge.

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 7:20pm

  26. Posted by HAPPY 10/07/2007 @ 7:13pm

    no relation

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 7:29pm

  27. Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 7:20pm

    per capita

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 7:30pm

  28. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 3:19pm

    IBBLE, if you want a clear cut example of "How could it POSSIBLY be worse?" was used (as you do with nationalized health care)....

    look no further than the neo-cons who said "How could Iraq POSSIBLY be worse than it was under Saddam with him gassing his own people and rape rooms?"

    And....amazingly...it was. So don't tell me ONE ideological side is free of "worse case scenarios" from their dreams and agenda, if the OTHER ideological side can be too!

    Posted by Mask at 10/07/2007 @ 7:49pm

  29. IBBLE, answer to your earlier post was Time-Warped to before FZ's Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/07/2007 @ 2:19pm.

    Posted by Mask at 10/07/2007 @ 7:50pm

  30. if more and more people, with far more than enough money to survive, do not give into the general fund, which helps to protect our infranstruture and maintain the health and welfare of our people, then this country is headed into the dustbin of history.

    and that's where we are headed right now. why? because people like maasch continue to sleepwalk into this nocturnal emission that is free market economics.

    keep jackin' that lil' thimble maasch!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 8:02pm

  31. Posted by MASK 10/07/2007 @ 7:50pm | ignore this person

    ah...i hate it when that happens...

    hey - that canyon guy says jews are putting blacks in jail...

    ever heard that before?

    well...time to go run...preventative medicine...

    oh wait...simpsons first...

    laughter - more preventative medicine...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 8:13pm

  32. Posted by MASK 10/07/2007 @ 7:50pm | ignore this person

    honestly...i could see a highly regulated for profit system working if done right and think it will probably end up like that.

    perhaps some kind of insurance co-op like deal. i'd also like to see government enable better retirement portability...

    and for all my ranting against wall street...perhaps government cooperation in this area (enabling pertability of pension) would actually allow schmuk nation to share in the wall street boom...

    i'm not anti-libertarian but believe such dreams ironically depend on a strong (if not nec big) independent regulatory gov as opposed to a chimpy mcmushmouth gov chock full of cronies and college republicans who helped on the chimpy campaign...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 8:24pm

  33. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/07/2007 @ 9:07pm | ignore

    thats all it is? people just being lazy bums and not taking care of themselves?

    typical of the rightwing cant-empathize-until-it-happens-to-me bullshit.

    nice compassion. i guess "its all their own fault" makes it easier to ignore the suffering of others...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 9:33pm

  34. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 8:24pm

    Good ideas, and maybe the way we salvage our system. I just think that we'll get incrementalism and then it will be "Oh, well, we might as well just give the whole thing to the Fed to run, since they're doing 80-85% of it now anyway!"

    Posted by Mask at 10/07/2007 @ 9:49pm

  35. Posted by MASK 10/07/2007 @ 9:49pm | ignore this person

    yeah...i have as hard a time seeing anyone implementing "socialized medicine" as you have not...lol...

    like i said...a STRONG, INDEPENDENT (ALL CAPS) PROFESSIONAL but not necc monolithic/gigundous government that indeed outsources to/sanely regulates private affairs...would probably work best...

    ie - libertarianism could function well with a gov possessed of a big regulatory stick it niether over nor under uses...

    but this bush/neocon crap is not really capitalism, imo...

    its a perversion of capitalism...

    hey, if o-train dont pull int the station...how bout an obama-paul independent protest ticket? LOL...LMAO...

    (yeah, i know...no need to point it out...)

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 10:20pm

  36. ....people just being lazy bums and not taking care of themselves?

    typical of the rightwing cant-empathize-until-it-happens-to-me bullshit....

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 9:33pm

    I am NOT into exercises but in recent decades, I never overeat or overdrink and do an awful lot of typical household, auto (eg: replaced my son's car's A/C fan motor a week ago) and rental property this-and-that...."active" would be an apt description....result? In Good health w/excellent blood pressure.

    Now, there is a lot of truth in what LVLIBERTY said....much of our health care `gap' logically has to be related to high % of overweight and obese Americans. We as a society, undeniably OVEREAT and eat much of the wrong kinds of food....I believe we also lead the industrialized world in watching TV (Hollywood's fault!), and maybe blogging! Inconvenient Truth?

    Posted by Happy at 10/07/2007 @ 10:24pm

  37. ....people just being lazy bums and not taking care of themselves?

    typical of the rightwing cant-empathize-until-it-happens-to-me bullshit....

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 9:33pm

    I am NOT into exercises but in recent decades, I don't overeat or overimbib and do an awful lot of typical household, auto and rental property this-and-that...."active" would be an apt description....result? In Good health w/excellent blood pressure....w/maybe 5~10 lbs. extra around the waist....a B+/A- HAPPY man :-)))

    Now, there is a lot of truth in what LVLIBERTY said....much of our health care `gap' logically has to be related to high % of overweight and obese Americans. We as a society, undeniably OVEREAT and eat much of the wrong kinds of food....I believe we also lead the industrialized world in watching TV (Hollywood's fault!), and maybe blogging! Inconvenient Truth?

    Posted by Happy at 10/07/2007 @ 10:28pm

  38. All it takes is some Nation writer to suggest more socialist health care and the leftists go ballistic with their sob stories about how Americans supposedly lack good health care.

    It is such nonsense. Are their people in this country who cannot choose or afford the doctor of their choice? yes

    Does this mean that Americans are somehow lagging behind all of these socialist meccas in quality of health care? NO

    Most of America's health care issues are caused not by our free enterprise health care system but by the poor choices Americans make in their diet and exercise, and lifestyle habits.

    Darla, take another hit and go dream of cheshire cats and mad hatters.

    Liverlips,

    I hope you are hit by a bus (a GOP bus) in downtown Atlanta or some other big city and you don't have any ID on your ass.

    So they'll roll your sorry ass into an ER and see that your aren't covered so, they'll put you on stand by until further info. can be obtained. Of course you are bleeding to death, but, well you don't have any credentials or insurance information not to mention a family member at your side claiming you are who you say you are.

    So, you die waiting in a big city ER room because you are a nobody. Pretty pictuer isn't it?! Just trying to help you out in the future here.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/07/2007 @ 9:07pm

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/07/2007 @ 10:33pm

  39. Posted by HAPPY 10/07/2007 @ 10:28pm

    well - not saying there is not truth...but some poor schmuk who loses his insurance because of...whatever...say...job outsourced...

    not really an issue of personal responsibility...

    perhaps gov oversight of healthcare and soe kind of co-op for down and outers and in betweeners...

    as it is the onus of health care being purely on the employer seems like a big pain in the ass to me...and a distraction from doing business, you know?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 10:47pm

  40. Now, there is a lot of truth in what LVLIBERTY said....much of our health care `gap' logically has to be related to high % of overweight and obese Americans. We as a society, undeniably OVEREAT and eat much of the wrong kinds of food....I believe we also lead the industrialized world in watching TV (Hollywood's fault!), and maybe blogging! Inconvenient Truth?

    Posted by HAPPY 10/07/2007 @ 10:28pm

    Happy,

    I don't know what planet you live on, but a good portion of Americans live on fast food which is full of trans fatty acids not to mention carcinogens. Some of these people are ignorant of what they are eating and don't know the ramifications of what they are eating will do to their bodies over time.

    So, Mr Free Market, capitalistic power grabber, what do you suggest we do with these people? Maybe we should just poison them with their next burger because they don't contribute to society to the liking of the conservatives.....oh, but there's a small problem with this line of thinking. Only the poor are the ones desperate enought to enlist in the military to bring their standard of living up.

    So, I guess these people should use the military weight loss program and say goodbye to their families because, well, their families don't really deserve to live anyway right? Unless they fit into your little mold of what you think people should be, they are useless and deserve to die?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/07/2007 @ 10:58pm

  41. Darla, take another hit and go dream of cheshire cats and mad hatters

    actually, what i'd like to dream of is pundits endlessely debating how to fund the MILITARY MISADVENTURES of a neoconservative fatalist than the tepid proposals to fund POOR children's healthcare!

    so F*CK YOU LVLIBERTY!! how's that?!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:08pm

  42. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE...

    Conservatives kill people, including children....

    Posted by w_m_bear at 10/07/2007 @ 11:13pm

  43. Darla, take another hit and go dream of cheshire cats and mad hatters.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/07/2007 @ 9:07pm

    why bother?

    we've got plenty of tweedle-dees'n'dums here in realityland.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:17pm

  44. actually, what i'd like to dream of is pundits endlessely debating how to fund the MILITARY MISADVENTURES of a neoconservative fatalist than the tepid proposals to fund POOR children's healthcare!

    so F*CK YOU LVLIBERTY!! how's that?!

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:08pm

    Darladon,

    I'm with you on this, but remember that Liverlips is a "holy man" meaning that he and only he and George W and the rest of the nutcase rightwing fruitcases talk to God.

    In their warped twisted fucked up minds, they know that killng people in other countries is Godly and good.. Nevermind what it says in Bible about killing, as long as you can pretend that you are killing in the name of God, you are in the right and so be it. Arguement is over and no discussion of the subject is needed anymore.

    Sounds a lot like the lunatics strapping bombs to themselves to take out a handful of infidels. But, Liverlips the holy man has God and Jesus on his side.

    To take a line out of the movie "The Ten Commandments"....if there is a God, he did not mean this to be so.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/07/2007 @ 11:20pm

  45. Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:08pm

    ALL CONSERVATIVES REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO WHEN PRESSED....

    Is resort to name-calling and insults. This is because, like Lvliberty, they have no facts or logic to back up their arguments. Their favorite insult is to call liberals "moonbats" and other such sobriquets (such as you experienced from the aforementioned asshole). If Bush's veto of the SCHIP bill is what cons think of as "sanity," then I'm perfectly happy to be a "moonbat" (or whatever) in their book....

    Posted by w_m_bear at 10/07/2007 @ 11:20pm

  46. i'm not anti-libertarian but believe such dreams ironically depend on a strong (if not nec big) independent regulatory gov

    by iblbllbelble

    we need nicenomics.

    free market deal + nice

    nice to others

    nice to our planet

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:21pm

  47. Most of America's health care issues are caused not by our free enterprise health care system but by the poor choices Americans make in their diet and exercise, and lifestyle habits.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/07/2007 @ 9:07pm

    i don't care who's paying for it, going to the doctor sucks (nothing personal dr.s).

    if fewer people went to the doctor, my taxes would ¡probably! be lower.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:24pm

  48. do you see pundits endlessly dissecting how to pay for each and every component of the $200 billion extension for the wars in iraq and afghanistan? NO!

    but when it comes to a $20 billion extension for POOR CHILDREN'S HEALTH CARE? oh, oh, we need to get into the nitty-titty-gritty with that one! and the closer we look, the more we realize it's going to be paid for with A CIGARETTE TAX. not chinese money, but A CIGARETTE TAX!

    but the war in iraq? oh, sure, let's borrow WHATEVER WE NEED for that. nevermind how to pay for a FAILED POLICY!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:28pm

  49. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/07/2007 @ 11:21pm

    this country is indeed super business oriented. some ethics combined with that might not be the worst answer...

    mmm...good game on...bad news bears vs. old man favre's boys...

    30 minutes of plodding jogging makes for nice sleepy time...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 11:29pm

  50. Most of America's health care issues are caused not by our free enterprise health care system but by the poor choices Americans make in their diet and exercise, and lifestyle habits.

    now, this is actually somewhat true, BUT one has to admit that "free market economics" do not facilitate an environment in which americans CAN make good choices.

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:31pm

  51. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 11:29pm

    the future representative of THE OCTILOGY [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:39pm

  52. Most of America's health care issues are caused not by our free enterprise health care system but by the poor choices Americans make in their diet and exercise, and lifestyle habits.

    now, this is actually somewhat true, BUT one has to admit that "free market economics" do not facilitate an environment in which americans CAN make good choices.

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:31pm

    Darla, I have two daughers. One is 7 and the other is almost 4. Both of them are hit with a barrage of commercials telling them that McDonalds is a great place to go to, Pizza Hut, Burger King and the list goes on and on.

    Not one of these places sells healthy food and packages crap to try to get kids to badger their parents to take them there for prizes. Now, Liverlips and Happy back this sort of thing, but then whine like the little chimps they are when the kids are fat and diabetic due to eating at places like this.

    You feed kids pure fat and promote sitting on their asses to watch t.v. and play computer games, yes, you'll end up with a nation of overweight kids. Go figure.

    But, the freemrket system, kind of like the Mattel thing with the lead paint, pushes this until people realize they are actually being harmed by the end product.

    Then, of course, it's not the company selling this stuff to children who is at fault, but the parents for allowing their children to purchase, eat or play with said items. No matter how you play it, in Liverlips' and Happys' minds, businesses are innocent at all times. It's those stupid greedy consumers that are causing all the problems.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/07/2007 @ 11:41pm

  53. now, this is actually somewhat true, BUT one has to admit that "free market economics" do not facilitate an environment in which americans CAN make good choices.

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:31pm

    and unregulated, cronyized industry has left the sky, soil, and water as poisonous as any bigmac.

    we need NICENOMICS.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:43pm

  54. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/07/2007 @ 11:39pm | ignore this

    GAAAAAHHGHH!

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:31pm

    tax greasy fatty glogulant food...

    if it were my thing i'd start a fast food/healthy/delivery restaurant in some collegy "liberal" city...

    boca burgers, falafel, hummous wraps...

    its actually yummy and dont make you feel like you stuffed greasy death down the old pie-hole...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 11:44pm

  55. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/07/2007 @ 11:44pm

    hey! didya hear about mcdonald's new burger?

    it's got 10% less fat THAN A BOWL OF FAT!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:49pm

  56. ibbleblibble, just come to san francisco. we don't really have chain stores. (i think one mcdonalds, one burger king, and one taco bell, that's it), people walk or bike or take public, people know how to cook, people drink good wine and eat good local organic food, etc, etc.

    and then......goto phoenix or houston. FAT FAT FAT. everywhere!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:50pm

  57. Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:50pm |

    all those hills help!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:52pm

  58. Good work, but don't tell them how much they are REALLY going to have to pay for it all!

    and don't tell them it's going to come from a CIGARETTE TAX EITHER!

    oh, and don't tell them HOW WE ARE GOING TO PAY FOR AN ADDITIONAL $200 BILLION for two failed wars in the middle east (shhhhhh on that one, right?)

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:52pm

  59. i mean..honestly...if i could drive into a fast food joint and get a hummous wrap or boca burger...i'd do it...used to be a delivery joint near the university here.

    DARLA - you live in cali/berkely, right? any healthy fast food joints out there?

    tax unhealthy clogulant food, i say...

    the artery clogging industry would love that!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 11:53pm

  60. Posted by RIO BRAVO 10/07/2007 @ 11:50pm

    c'mon rio, be nice.

    wouldn't you rather spend that money on chemotherapy for kids than terrorizing kids half way around the world?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/07/2007 @ 11:54pm

  61. DARLA - you live in cali/berkely, right? any healthy fast food joints out there?

    of course!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/07/2007 @ 11:55pm

  62. Posted by DARLADOON 10/07/2007 @ 11:50p

    dear...i live in south clogulina...lol...

    drive through...sushi...healthy...not just subway...you know? i think it could work even here...

    a lot of lazy busy types would love to eat healthy but...

    either a) gotta get a salad (hard to eat while driving) or b) something that looks healthy but tastes sketchy...right next to that freaking yummy looking clogulant thing on the menu...

    i know you hate the driving thing but this place has no decent public trans...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/07/2007 @ 11:58pm

  63. the part of town around the university has some good healthy restaurants...

    the healthy grocery stores tend toward bourgios pricyness...though the farmers market is cheap (ugh...early morning)...

    think i'll buy a health food book...learn how to make this stuff myself...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/08/2007 @ 12:02am

  64. tax greasy fatty glogulant food...

    not a bad idea, as they have HUGE taxes on cigarettes and alcohol in scandinavia (a region where all countries routinely rate in the top 5 of highest quality countries)......shocker, those socialist countries ranking so high. gee, do you think TAXES have anything to do with it?

    inevitable maasch-ian argument: "well, they don't have to support as many people as we do."

    good one!

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 12:32am

  65. think i'll buy a health food book...learn how to make this stuff myself...

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/08/2007 @ 12:02am

    grow your own

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 12:32am

  66. If you believe everything George W. Bush says, he's a morally and spiritually reformed, born-again Christian who finds nothing wrong with effectually ordering the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, lying to accomplish goals he believes he has received from God, human torture for the purpose of gathering information, and now, preventing millions of children from receiving adequate health care in order to help poor children (Yes; you read that right). Are we starting to get a bead on this guy?

    Posted by dnmurchie at 10/08/2007 @ 01:18am

  67. PETER,

    I'm with Mask on this one, old boy: Universal Health, like any Socialist program, will look good at first untill the initial funding runs out. Then its high costs, long lines and incompetent doctors. Only reason to support it is cause politicos will never do it the right way. However, given a choice between wasting men and material on a losing cause fighting for people who don't give a damn about our way of doing things anyway, and spending money to help kids, I'll take the latter hands down.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 09:38am

  68. DARLADOON

    High Quality Countries, eh?

    By whose Standards?

    Do me a favor: the first time you hear of throngs of immigrants landing happily on the shores of SWEDEN looking for a better life, let me know, will ya?

    Chip

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 09:45am

  69. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/08/2007 @ 09:45am | ig

    actually lots of people do want to go there. they have quality immigration system too...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/08/2007 @ 10:17am

  70. they are not bordered by a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY chip...

    think...then speak...

    see?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/08/2007 @ 10:18am

  71. Hello? Musharraf? Hi, uh, it's George Bush. Look, I just wanted to congratulate you for winning your election!

    Posted by conshame at 10/08/2007 @ 10:31am

  72. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/08/2007 @ 10:18am

    hey, we're at least 2nd-and-a-half world!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 10:33am

  73. IBBLEBLIBBLE I'm afraid I must ask you to do the same, as well as improve your ability to read between the lines. My comment was to made to prove a point, which you missed and took literally. Even so, what freakin difference would the location of a third country close to us make anyway?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 10:36am

  74. JM -

    1. Americans are angry with Conservative Republicans who support George Bush. FACT.

    2. Americans are tired of bi-partisanship. FACT.

    3. Americans want Democrats to show some courage. FACT.

    4. Americans expect George Bush's war plans against Iran, thwarted. FACT.

    John Maasch, you insinuate that I am wrong about something, but if you won't even concede these facts, then you're a farce!

    Posted by conshame at 10/08/2007 @ 10:45am

  75. Actually IBBLE, I just caught your meaning. (Sorry, only 1 cup of coffee this morning). Your saying the only reason more people come here than go back to Europe is because of our convenient location? Your kidding, right? The numbers, not including legal Latinos overwhelmingly demonstrate a continued desire, since the first migrations to N America, to come here, or at least Canada.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 11:14am

  76. or at least Canada.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/08/2007 @ 11:14am

    at least?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 11:25am

  77. Yes, Frosty, at least

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 11:42am

  78. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/08/2007 @ 11:42am

    you're lucky it's thanksgiving.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 11:47am

  79. chip, iceland, denmark, sweden, norway and finland routinely score the highest marks in the world for quality of life. check the UN reports, human rights reports, water/air quality reports, etc, etc.

    yes, there are not bordered by a "third world" country, but does that have anything to do with this? france is bordered by......spain.....which is bordered by.....france. hmmmm......wonder how france managed to have the #1 health care system in the world last year.

    was it........TAXES?

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 12:00pm

  80. so the argument goes: since the USA is bordered by mexico, we shall always have problems with our health care system, our eduction system, our air/water quality?

    that's a terribly weak argument

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 12:03pm

  81. looks like DHS is driving out the mexicans. THEY'RE SENDING THEM TO CANADA [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 12:08pm

  82. Once again, I am THRILLED to have Maasch and all the other trolls and freepers on my ignore list. I wouldn't even know they posted except for the responses they get from everyone else. However, I get the idea that the trolls here are saying that only lazy, non-working people don't have health insurance and it's their own fault. This, of course, is patently false. Low paid jobs in retail don't have affordable health insurance for most of their workers. In addition, places like WalMart make it impossible to have two jobs by changing the shifts from day to day. Even two people working at minimum wage cannot afford health insurance.

    A member of my family has her own cleaning business and was able to support her family for years. But in the past few years, health insurance in the state of New York has gone up to nearly $1,000 per month. That's $12,000 per year for any of the mathematically challenged freepers here. Since both parents have to work, add in child care, rising energy costs, and other bills and disposable income goes down to nearly zero. So this family member took on another job. She had to give up some of her clients which meant that her hourly wages went down since the company she works for pays far less than she made cleaning. But she got health insurance. Now she works from 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. two days a week, from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. one day, a normal 8 hour day one day and two half days. She has a small child. This is unconscionable.

    I'm getting ready to retire in a couple of years. I will have worked at my current job for about 23 years and will be 62 at retirement. I've been saving in a tax shelter most of my working years and also have a decent, but not great, retirement plan which will pay me about 44% of my current income. Along with social security, my income should stay about the same as it is now. But I will have to pay about $800 a month for health insurance. (Yes, I know I could work for another 4 years until medicare kicks in, but that's not the point.) So it will take nearly all of my tax shelter or all of my saved personal days to pay for insurance. If I don't use my personal days, I can use it to increase my income by the 44% of the total pay for these days for the rest of my life. To have worked for so many years only to have my entire savings wiped out in a few years or to make the choice of lowering my income is ridiculous. Of course,even after I get medicare, I won't be completely covered, so I'll still be paying for some insurance. And I'm one of the lucky ones!

    I'm not a Christian, but even I know that Jesus said we are judged by how we treat the least of our people. In America we treat children, the poor, the disadvantaged and the aged very, very badly. We are indeed not a Christian nation in any valid sense.

    Posted by LeeAnnG at 10/08/2007 @ 12:48pm

  83. We are indeed not a Christian nation in any valid sense

    oh, god, not even close! and the ones prancing around as 'values voters' or 'christians' are, in fact, the most awful people around. and they are always actively finding ways to prevent government health/education programs from working effectively. why? because effective government is against their EXTREMIST IDEOLOGICAL PRINCIPLES. these a*holes can't even look around at other countries for advice. gotta keep it stupid.....

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 12:55pm

  84. was it........TAXES? ---Posted by DARLADOON 10/08/2007 @ 12:00pm

    DARLA....did you mention "Iceland"? You did?

    Monday, March 12, 2007 "Iceland's Laffer Curve" by Lawrence Kudlow

    From today's Wall Street Journal:

    "...The benefits of low taxes are on full display in Iceland, which provides an almost perfect demonstration of the Laffer Curve. From 1991 to 2001, as the corporate-tax rate fell gradually to 18% from 45%, tax revenues tripled to 9.1 billion kronas ($134 million in today's exchange rate) from just above 3 billion kronas. Revenues have more than tripled again since 2001 to an estimated 33 billion kronas last year. Personal income-tax rates were cut gradually as well, to a flat rate of 22.75% this year from 33% in 1995. Meanwhile, the economy has averaged annual growth of about 4% over the past decade...."

    To top it off, Iceland's government is now considering a reduction of its corporate-tax rate to ten percent. That would beat Ireland's low corporate tax rate by over 2 percent.

    Meanwhile, the prevailing 35 percent corporate tax rate here in the U.S. continues to take monster bites from all U.S. businesses.

    Posted by Mask at 10/08/2007 @ 12:58pm

  85. Posted by WOLFGANG1 10/07/2007 @ 10:33pm

    WOLF-BANGER,

    You take the high moral path in ridicule the miserable likes of LVLIBERTY1 -- an aged sideshow freak without an iota of masculinity who is wont to wild spasms of piously expressed hatred against the world that has decisively passed him by.

    But you should know that he may have an interesting tale to tell about his experiences of hospitals as he claims to have been resurrected from several hours of death about 35 years ago after a..."motorcycle accident". Ask him about it, as we could all use a few hoots, and it's more fun at the expense of a the most rapidly crazed, paranoid rightwinger on the premises. I would ask LVRAPTURECIDE1 directly, but I put a boo-boo on his femmy, delicate feelings (sniff sniff) so he claims to have put me on "ignore". So, you can antagonize LVRAPTURECIDE1 further by indicating that "the black private dick who's a sex machine to all the chicks" sent you with the question.

    Also salient: have a friend who lives in the EU but recently came back to the USA for vacation when, crippled with pain, he had to go to the emergency room. One night in the hospital, with a battery of tests, set him back $6,000.

    He says if he had his emergency in the EU, the cost would have been ZERO as it is part of the residency package. For care just as good.

    Posted by John_Shaft at 10/08/2007 @ 1:03pm

  86. FROSTY,

    Yes, O Mighty Khan-I beg forgiveness. I am Camel Dung without your wisdom, Oh Bejewelled One! :)

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 1:45pm

  87. DARLA, regarding the Stan of Liv. I'm sure they do. And how much help will they be when there is another Tsunami somewhere? How much help were they when Europe was rebuilt from the ground up after WWII, and how much corn and wheat were they able to export to a starving Europe after WWI. I'm not knocking how they live. But the accumulation of wealth and power over the decades the US has achieved is why we are able to step in where others could never afford it. (And yes, I know we don't always "step" carefully) Imagine a world where the United States could only take care of itself, which is what you will have eventually if we begin to do everything the way Europe does economically. Frankly, Darla, Europe can AFFORD to do it that way: Their day is over. French wine and paintings, Italian architecture/Sculpture, German food, the beauty of a Budapest or Paris? By all means indulge and appreciate. But European economics and politics? 2000 years of history tells me no freakin way!

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 1:57pm

  88. But European economics and politics? 2000 years of history tells me no freakin way!

    i would never supplant an american politics for a european politics; i am merely arguing that if we can reduce the burden on our middle classes, raise the quality of life for the working classes, and limit the pressures and anxieties on everyone who lives check to check, we might be around for a lot longer than our european allies were.

    everyday, americans here our president, and his party, speak with vigor, about dismantling large swaths of the public sector: that includes health care, education, public infrastructure, transportation, parks and recreational spaces, etc, etc. is this something that a majority of americans want?

    europe may have a lot less responsibility, but they also have a lot less to give and take. we, however, have enormous wealth and power, resources, labor, land, etc. it is our responsiblity to give away what we don't need. it doesn't necessarily make us nicer people.

    mask, while i appreciate the data you have provided, i still have a couple questions for you:

    -are health care and education free and universal in iceland? (yes)

    -does iceland have widespread poverty and homelessness? (no)

    -does iceland have a strong middle class? (yes)

    the united states CAN manage to provide for all of its people, and encourage economic growth, if countries like iceland can as well.

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 2:14pm

  89. posted by LEEANNG 10/08/2007 @ 12:48pm | ignore this person

    We are indeed not a Christian nation in any valid sense

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/08/2007 @ 12:55pm

    actually, perhaps you are.

    the majority of americans (and canadians) have professed christianity for a long time.

    so, even if many are not of the christian faith (me), they have grown up in a christian society. (me)

    and nothing wrong with that.

    jesus was cool.

    and thou shalt not kill etc., makes a lot of sense.

    of course, the problem arises when people try to usurp the faith in the name of their greed-ridden lust for power.

    i'm a proud non-christian christian.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 2:18pm

  90. Meanwhile, the prevailing 35 percent corporate tax rate here in the U.S. continues to take monster bites from all U.S. businesses.

    what you meant to say was: "monster bites from those business still in the united states"

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 2:23pm

  91. what you meant to say was: "monster bites from those business still in the united states"

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/08/2007 @ 2:23pm

    haven't you heard?

    Washington (i.e. k-streetville) is moving their headquarters (WH, Capitol, Penta) to the Cayman Islands.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 2:26pm

  92. Jesus IS cool :)

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 2:31pm

  93. there is no proof that jesus ever existed

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 2:36pm

  94. DARLA

    It is a scientific fact that the man did live and lived for 33 years. Even my Science professor said so.

    I am not an evangelist, so to those who choose not to believe this, I say Good Luck.

    After giving this matter much thought for many years, I have concluded that God does exist, so did Jesus, and He is Gods Son.

    Don't mean to be obstinate, but since you brought it up, I'll tell you I don't give a red rats ass whether anybody accepts this or not. The records are there. I do try to keep perspective, though, and understand that "Christians" like Jerry Fallwell are assholes who don't have a clue.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 3:00pm

  95. chip, send me a link with anthropological and/or other hard evidence that Jesus existed. where are the bones? the DNA? and how do you know that his name was Jesus, and not a name more fitting for the location and time period?

    33 years, eh? how do you know that?

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 3:08pm

  96. oh, btw, please don't refer to the SCRIPTURES to make your arguments, as john or luke (can't remember which) have no credibility whatsoever, in that they refer to jesus' birth as a "miracle", and not the result of a thing called pro-creation.

    Posted by darladoon at 10/08/2007 @ 3:11pm

  97. Look 'em up yourself, DARLA, they are out there. Like I said, I'm not interested nor do I feel the need to prove these facts to you or anyone: I'm not the one with the doubts.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 4:04pm

  98. Hey, guys, Adolph Jr. is still on the other thread spouting his Nazi rhetoric. What a 'toon!

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/08/2007 @ 4:06pm

  99. Posted by DARLADOON 10/08/2007 @ 2:14pm

    Sure, and when you have a population that homogenuous and LESS THAN the population of Oakland, across the bay from you....you can do all that and keep it reasonably cheap and less bureaucratic.

    Try it with 300 MILLION and you run into trouble.

    But my main point was in refutation of your "TAXES!" claim. Why would Iceland be CUTTING the corporate tax (not income, but taxes on Big Evil Corporations)...unless they knew it hurt them economically to keep them high (and not even as high as most of Europe).

    Posted by Mask at 10/08/2007 @ 4:29pm

  100. The late, great Kurt Vonnegut said that what Jesus said was so wonderful, does it really matter if he was god or not? My feeling is that what was written that Jesus said was so wonderful, it doesn't matter if he actually existed or not. But my earlier point in saying that America is not a Christian nation is that America - or at least its government and religious wingnuts - do not practice Christianity as it was first proposed. Jesus is mainly all about the sermon on the mount. The 10 commandments are not Jesus. And Jesus never said "Blessed are the warmongers and chickenhawks."

    Imagine any radical (I refuse to call them "conservatives") proposing that the beatitudes be placed in government buildings! Even as a non-Christian, I might support that idea, no matter where it comes from.

    Posted by LeeAnnG at 10/08/2007 @ 4:41pm

  101. there is no proof that jesus ever existed

    Posted by DARLADOON 10/08/2007 @ 2:36pm

    so what?

    he's still cool.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 5:38pm

  102. Posted by LEEANNG 10/08/2007 @ 4:41pm

    wow! i said the same thing as kurt. yeah!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 5:40pm

  103. Hey, Frosty, your cousin in Baltimore is getting better known, now that yur fellow countryman Mark Steyn has jumped on the story......sad tale of liberal American journalism--lazy, sloppy or downright dishonest-- and how easily they fall for stories that they WANT told, screw the facts!

    Sunday, October 07, 2007

    Brother, can you spare a CHIP? [Mark Steyn]

    This would seem to be a fairly typical media trajectory. The Democrats sign up a sick kid to read their Saturday morning radio address.....the respectable media were very taken by it:

    .....Graeme Frost of Baltimore is 12 years old, a seventh-grader at the Park School, and he understands why children need health care and their parents need help paying for it. He explained it during a rebuttal to the president's Saturday radio address. Yes, we know, Senate staffers wrote the speech for Graeme. That doesn't take away from the message. Does anyone really think President Bush writes his own material?

    Of course not. And nor does The Baltimore Sun, which did a nice fluffy soft-focus story typing out the Dems' press release and not querying a word:

    Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work.

    If it ever occurred to Matthew Hay Brown, the Sun's "reporter", to look into just what kind of "woodworking" Mr Frost did, he managed to suppress the urge.

    "icwhatudo" at Free Republic, however, showed rather more curiosity than the professional reporter paid to investigate the story and did a bit of Googling. Mr Frost, the "woodworker", owns his own design company and the commercial property it operates from, part of which space he also rents out; they have a 3,000-sq-ft home on a street where a 2,000-sq-ft home recently sold for half a million dollars; he was able to afford to send two children simultaneously to a $20,000-a-year private school; his father and grandfather were successful New York designers and architects; etc. This is apparently the new definition of "working families":

    Had it not been for a federal health insurance program tailored for working families such as hers - ones lacking the income to purchase private health insurance - Frost is certain that she and her husband would be buried under a mound of unpaid medical bills... She and her husband have priced private health insurance, but they say it would cost them more per month than their mortgage - about $1,200 a month. Neither parent has health insurance through work.

    Insureblog, also demonstrating more journalistic initiative than Mr Hay Brown, checked out that last bit:

    A check of a quote engine for zip code 21250 (Baltimore) finds a plan for $641 with a $0 deductible and $20 doc copays.

    Adding a deductible of $750 (does not apply to doc visits) drops the premium to $452. That's almost a third of the price quoted in the article. Doesn't anyone bother to check the facts?

    But who needs facts when you've got the human-interest angle sewn up?

    Bonnie Frost still can't drive down the road where the accident occurred...

    Bad things happen to good people, and they cause financial problems and tough choices. But, if this is the face of the "needy" in America, then no-one is not needy. And, if everyone needs assistance from the federal government, so be it. But I don't think I want to drive down the road where Bonnie Frost wants to take us - because at the end of it there are no free-born citizens, just a nation where everyone is a ward of the state.

    10/07 01:00 PM

    Posted by Happy at 10/08/2007 @ 7:13pm

  104. 2008 Presidential Election Weekly Poll
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    Posted by votenic at 10/08/2007 @ 7:24pm

  105. CHIP

    mexico is a butt poor (compared to us) nation of around a hundred million people with which we share a border of what? 1, 2 thousand miles? the VAST majority of immigrants in this country came from mexico...

    but of course people from all over the developing world as well as aspiring narcisistic entertainers and rupert murdochs want to come here...

    but many poor and oppressed want to go to europe too...

    contrary to comonly held self esteem building "we're so greatism" other wealthy nations also exist to which flock po' folks...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/08/2007 @ 7:35pm

  106. I stopped cable TV ~10 years ago--not long after the Rockets won back-to-back B-ball Championships--precisely because my kids were watching far too much Cartoon Network, Nickelodian, MTV, etc.....I miss cable sports, History and Discovery channels....but that was a PARENTAL CHOICE that I will UNDO when the younger one marches off (I hope) to college.

    My teen son is a distance simmer on the HS varsity team and anyone that knows anything about competitive swimming, should know they are the leanest team members!

    Yes, we have a wonderful free market system and one is free to become a lazyass overweight tub of lard and raise similarly `endowed' children!

    Me, I picked up a load of sidings today and as weather cools, will be replacing some decade-old sidings in the coming weeks! My Reality Show...home repairs, exercise and playing with bad ass power tools!

    Posted by Happy at 10/08/2007 @ 9:10pm

  107. Posted by HAPPY 10/08/2007 @ 9:10pm

    watch out for them squirrels.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/08/2007 @ 11:34pm

  108. they are not bordered by a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY chip...

    think...then speak...

    see?

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/08/2007 @ 10:18am

    IBBLEBLIBBLE, Be nice to Chip, you are asking the impossible of him. He figures that because he doesn't hear or read about this in U.S. media that it doesn't happen.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 06:58am

  109. DARLA

    It is a scientific fact that the man did live and lived for 33 years. Even my Science professor said so.

    I am not an evangelist, so to those who choose not to believe this, I say Good Luck.

    After giving this matter much thought for many years, I have concluded that God does exist, so did Jesus, and He is Gods Son.

    These are facts are they? So, you say that Jesus was God's son? Go ask a Catholic Priest that. The Catholics like to use the term trinity meaning that Jesus is the father, son and holy spirit meaning he is God and the Son of God, not just the son of God but God himself. I've always had a problem with that.

    So, how could he have forsaken himself while dying on the cross?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 07:10am

  110. Further, I am not aware that anyone in this country is deprived access to basic nutritional knowledge. Perhaps some of you libs can cite an example?

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/08/2007 @ 7:57pm

    Are you kidding me? There should be a label like on cigarettes saying something along the lines of" this burger contains X amount of calories... an average body burns X amount of calories per day, therefore this burger exceeds your daily caloric input by 500 calories and that is excluding your coke, fries and whatever else you may have ordered".

    Also, most poor folks don't have any place else to go to eat out except places like McDonalds. Between not eating or eating, it't their best option, unfortunately their best option will make them fat. Try to think outside the box once in a while. In short, try to think like someone who doesn't have enough money to pay rent, medical insurance, car insurance and food bills on minimum wage jobs and you may come to slightly different conclusions.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 07:19am

  111. Trust me, Wolfgang, I'm no Catholic. I was raised Catholic, so I'm fully aware of the Trinity. Came to the conclusion some time that between the two groups, the Protestants have the better handle on things. (No offense to any Catholics) The Church hasn't even figured out yet that forcing people of the same sex to live together leads to odd behavior, like pedophilia.

    The real key here is that there is a difference between Religion and Faith. I don't care about religion: Religion is man made. That doesn't mean you can't have faith. Add to that the documentation that's out there and the realization that just because WE can figure it out doesn't mean its not there, and its a no brainer.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 07:53am

  112. WE'RE SO GREATISM"

    Whatsa matter, IB, got somethin' against bein' the best?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 08:38am

  113. To answer your last question, Wolf, there wasn't any forsaking: It happened the way it did because it was supposed to happen that way.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 08:59am

  114. Whatsa matter, IB, got somethin' against bein' the best?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/09/2007 @ 08:38am

    "Where men are the most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have there given reins to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense, which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities." ~ David Hume

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 09:50am

  115. Food for thought to be sure FROST, certainly no reason not to shoot for the top though-(doesn't HAVE to be done the way Bush does it, you know)

    An' u jes'wate! Jest es suun as ah kin find sum famus werds from sum uther famus gai, ah'll be back tu yuh.... Elly Mae!! Fire up mah Innernet!! :)

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 10:19am

  116. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/09/2007 @ 09:50am

    Great quote, FZ....but not limited solely to the Right end of the political spectrum!

    Posted by Mask at 10/09/2007 @ 10:34am

  117. Great quote, FZ....but not limited solely to the Right end of the political spectrum!

    Posted by MASK 10/09/2007 @ 10:34am

    of course not.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 11:14am

  118. The real key here is that there is a difference between Religion and Faith. I don't care about religion: Religion is man made. That doesn't mean you can't have faith. Add to that the documentation that's out there and the realization that just because WE can figure it out doesn't mean its not there, and its a no brainer.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/09/2007 @ 07:53am

    Mr Chip, What you have is a strong sense of faith Chip, but that isn't proof of anything. You believe because your faith is strong in what you believe. Good for you, but, that doesn't mean that it's a proven fact.

    I've seen so many verying versions of proof that Jesus lived, but none of them have concrete evidence. The most concrete evidence is the fact that there are a lot of writings about this man from different sources.

    What I find amazing is what the Churches have decided is canonical material and not. If this material doesn't fit our version of what we think Christianity is, then it doesn't go in and so on. So, we end up with multiple versions of what one man said. Even the most ardent biblical scholars will admit to that.

    I guess what I am trying to say here is don't confuse faith with historical fact. They aren't one and the same.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 11:27am

  119. watch out for them squirrels.

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/08/2007 @ 11:34pm

    Funny!! My next door neighbor has been battling squirrels for as long as I can remember! He sets up a cage in the front yard straddling our property line and about once every couple of weeks, some dumb squirrel gets trapped....he then takes the critter to a county park a few miles away!

    Still, our mature neighborhood--I have 8 trees--still teems with them! I like them just fine....good exercise for my dog who has yet to catch one :-).....except my back neighbor feeds them unshelled Jimminy Peanuts and the shells are all over my backyard and driveway! Tales from the hood......

    Posted by Happy at 10/09/2007 @ 11:28am

  120. Jed Clampett: Boy, I'm gonna give you 24 hours to clean up all this mess.

    Jethro: Aw come on, Uncle Jed. I'm gonna clean up. I'm gonna set this world on fire!

    Jed Clampett: You're gonna clean up alright. Everything. Or you're gonna end up with the seat of your britches on fire.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 11:33am

  121. I did mention a combination of facts/sources AND faith, Wolfe. I'm too much of a product of my times to accept things 100% on faith. Thats why I gave this so much thought, and for every fact you could find that claims Jesus didn't exist, I can find at least one that says he does, cause I used to do that. Then I simply began to wonder why some people make such effort, sometimes with relish, to prove he WASN'T here. That seemed pointless and possibly self destructive.

    Oddly, yesterday when this discussion start NPR had a "reformed atheist" on. He posed a question to himself years ago. Despite all the facts each way,is fully half the world delusional, or do I simply have some inate character flaw that will not allow me to see the ULTIMATE truth? Thats what everybodys gotta decide for themselves. Sorry for the length.

    Chip

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 11:53am

  122. Funny!! My next door neighbor has been battling squirrels for as long as I can remember! He sets up a cage in the front yard straddling our property line and about once every couple of weeks, some dumb squirrel gets trapped....he then takes the critter to a county park a few miles away!

    Still, our mature neighborhood--I have 8 trees--still teems with them! I like them just fine....good exercise for my dog who has yet to catch one :-).....except my back neighbor feeds them unshelled Jimminy Peanuts and the shells are all over my backyard and driveway! Tales from the hood......

    Posted by HAPPY 10/09/2007 @ 11:28am

    Happy, The squirrels are probably laughing it up, leaving the park and heading back to your neighbors yard.

    At present, I have squirrels and humming birds that like to mess with my cats. The humming birds hang out just out of reach and the cats go nuts.

    The squirrels like to sit up in the trees and taunt the cats. The cats don't find it amusing, but it's funny to watch.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 11:53am

  123. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/09/2007 @ 08:38am

    against pride - its a sin and makes one unpopular. humility is the virtue...and not synonomous with wimpishness...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/09/2007 @ 11:54am

  124. Posted by HAPPY 10/09/2007 @ 11:28am |

    squirrels - the other white meat...

    my male cat, who is one of the cutest, sweetest, most affectionate little guys you can imagine...

    loves to kill squirrells and munch down on 'em..starts with the heads and eats everything but the tail...guess brains are sweet...

    he also likes rabbits - i've seen the little natural born killer with a rabitt in his mouth 3/4 his size...he never leaves squirrels or rabbits for me...just birds...

    squirrels...mmmmm....

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/09/2007 @ 12:03pm

  125. Sciurus carolinensism, the eastern grey squirrel, if it can survive the hazards of automobiles in its first 2 years, can live up to 12 years and 20 in captivity.

    that means they are the same squirrels watching you, year after year.

    i hope DHS doesn't get any ideas from this.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 12:22pm

  126. he also likes rabbits - i've seen the little natural born killer with a rabitt in his mouth 3/4 his size...he never leaves squirrels or rabbits for me...just birds...

    squirrels...mmmmm....

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/09/2007 @ 12:03pm

    Sounds like you have a normal cat. My cats turn their noses up at fish and demand that they get their dry cat food. In defense of my third cat that we inherited from somoene moving, that cat will kill birds, possibly squirrels and the like, but then again, I don't see those beasts tormenting that cat, just the other two cat wannabees.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 12:32pm

  127. lol - in my yard there are no stupid, slow, squirrels...at least not for long...

    ah, natural selection!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/09/2007 @ 12:41pm

  128. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/09/2007 @ 11:53am

    CHIP, who cares if Jesus existed? There are no "facts" that he was a diety, demi-god, or "Son of God"....nor that his STENOGRAPHERS were accurate since he wrote none of his work!

    Posted by Mask at 10/09/2007 @ 1:06pm

  129. Posted by MASK 10/09/2007 @ 1:06pm

    maybe not.

    but he is definitely someone to look up to (no pun intended), whether he existed or not.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 1:08pm

  130. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/09/2007 @ 1:08pm

    Why? Again, have to take a step back. Jesus....wrote nothing. What image we have of him (by alleged quotation or alleged acts) are made by HIS FRIENDS...not him.

    So, why not look upto....Huckleberry Finn?.....or Frodo?....or Jubal Harshaw?....Or even The Little Engine That Could?

    Or better yet, someone like Thoreau or Gandhi or ML King Jr. who have writings in their own word and by their own hand?

    Posted by Mask at 10/09/2007 @ 2:20pm

  131. Like I said,Mask, I know what I know, and it matters. Make your own decisions.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/09/2007 @ 2:22pm

  132. I haven't had medical insurance for over 15 years.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/09/2007 @ 1:44pm

    You'd better pray you don't have a stroke and end up semi paralyzed due to brain damage. The recovery for such a thing can be long and expensive and unless you happen to have towards a million dollars in the bank, you could end up out on the streets due to medical coverage. Then there are other diseases like diabetes that can put a hell of a crimp on your lifestyle as well.

    I agree with you that people make poor choices on the foods that they eat and eating out a McDonalds on a regular basis is not a good idea. But, fast foods and lack of exercise are the biggest reasons Americans are becoming obeses and diabetics at the ripe old age of 14 or 15. This country is going to end up paying for this one way or the other. Either in higher levels of unemployment or in medical insurance to cover those with diseases like diabetes. It drives up the medical costs for the healthy people as well as the unhealthy people.

    Meanwhile, companies like McDonalds, Burger King etc. that are at least indirectly responsible for at least part of this are reducing the insurance coverage they have on their employees yet making larger profits. You'd think they could maybe kick into the medical side of things since they've helped contribute to the obesity of Americans.

    My dad died from diabetes and I know others who have had limbs cut off from the disease. It's not a pretty sight. P.S. In case you think I'm one of those burger eating folks next in line to be a diabetic, I run 10K's lift weights and eat healthy because I saw what happened to my dad. But I'm always worried that one day I will go into the doctor and they'll tell me I've developed diabetes. All I can do is keep my weight down, eat right and keep my fingers crossed.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 2:28pm

  133. Americans are becoming obeses

    Sorry, I meant Americans are becoming obese. Maybe obeses could be plural for multiple Americans becoming obese?!

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/09/2007 @ 2:32pm

  134. Posted by MASK 10/09/2007 @ 2:20pm

    yep. all of them, too.

    freddie, velma, daphne, shaggy, scooby, too.

    and vonnegut, coltrane, bach, and shakespeare, too.

    those who seek righteousness are the blessed of this earth.

    btw don't you look up to the little engine that could?

    i do.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/09/2007 @ 3:12pm

  135. Like I said,Mask, I know what I know, and it matters. Make your own decisions.----Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/09/2007 @ 2:22pm

    Ahhhh, but how do you know you know what you know?

    Ya know?

    Posted by Mask at 10/09/2007 @ 4:14pm

  136. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/09/2007 @ 3:12pm

    Well again, we want to read what Vonnegut thought...we can read his own words. Want to hear what John Coltrane felt...we can listen to his music.

    Anything from Jesus comes from John, Mark, Luke, Matthew, etc. Or even more of a "step away from the source", Paul.

    Posted by Mask at 10/09/2007 @ 4:19pm

  137. Isn't Bush proposing expanding the program, just not as much as the Democrats want?

    Posted by Person at 10/09/2007 @ 9:00pm

  138. Meanwhile, companies like McDonalds, Burger King etc. that are at least indirectly responsible for at least part of this...

    Posted by WOLFGANG1 10/09/2007 @ 2:28pm | ignore this person

    Boy, it gets so old to continue to dump on fast food. They are businesses, not charity organizations or community service groups. It's just a fashionable "progressive" mantra. Has it ever occurred to you that people are responsible for their own eating habits and health? If they choose to eat poorly, it's their problem.

    Posted by Person at 10/10/2007 @ 08:50am

  139. Posted by PERSON 10/09/2007 @ 9:00pm

    PERSON, curious, do you know the reason Bush gave that he didn't want to expand it as much as the Democrats did?

    Posted by Mask at 10/10/2007 @ 09:33am

  140. Boy, it gets so old to continue to dump on fast food. They are businesses, not charity organizations or community service groups. It's just a fashionable "progressive" mantra. Has it ever occurred to you that people are responsible for their own eating habits and health? If they choose to eat poorly, it's their problem.

    Posted by PERSON 10/10/2007 @ 08:50am

    Why are you so quick to jump to the defense of companies that sell crap for food to people? I would rather be on the progressive side than a conservative stooge for big corporations that would sell me out in a heartbeat for a buck.

    If you bought an engine oil that over time caused your engine to prematurely sieze you'd probably be up in arms because your investment (your car) was damaged by the product you purchased. So, your car dies at, let's say 70k miles and you spent 30 grand on it.

    So, how much is a persons life worth, and their health? Do I think they should be able to sue fast food companies for the quality of their food? No. But, do I think theses fast food chains should contribute some of their tax right offs back into the health care system?

    Kind of like the companies that pollute the air should have to do something to clean up the mess they make. When profits alone dictate how things are done, you usually end up with low quality products that just barely pass the grade. Companies cut corners, higher cheaper labor etc. to keep profits up. Look at Mattel with the led paint or some of these other products causing consumer problems due to poor quality control and regulation.

    If there's any charity going on, it's charity that big businesses are getting from the goverment in the form of tax breaks, tax funded infrastructure to accomodate big business. Don't be ranting on about charity when it's big business which has been the largest recipient of charity for quite some time.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/10/2007 @ 10:56am

  141. Wolfgang, you're an idiot and you don't know what you're talking about.

    1) Let me turn this around on you: Why are you so quick to condemn companies that are selling a perfectly legal and properly marketed food? When has fast food ever claimed itself to be health food? They deliver on their promise of tastey, inexpensive and fast food. It's not a bait and switch routine.

    2) You're right about the engine oil. I would raise holy hell if an engine oil messed up my car. You're wrong about the price of my car, however, it's more like $40K. But this example doesn't fit the argument. Engine oil proclaims itlsef to be good for your car. Fast food doesn't make similar proclamations about your health. 3) Insurance companies make this leap every day. They usually calculate the price based on estimated lifetime earnings, but I don't think that's what you're getting at. I disagree that the fast food companies should be forced to pay into the health system. For one, I don't even know how it would work. Secondly, how could you pinpoint fast food's contribution to someone's declining health? Surely it's merely one component of a much larger set of health variables, including genetics, exercise, other bad habits, just to name a few. If you can find a way to single out fast food's role as a stand alone figure, then I'd be impressed. But I still wouldn't support forcing them to pay for something that boils down to a person's individual decision.

    4) I disagree yet again with your opinion about the profit motive. I do so mainly because it is patently absurd and demonstrates embarrassing ignorance on your part. The example of Matel shows us that their quality control is working. They immediately pulled the tainted products from the market at a tremendous cost, I'm sure. Why, you wonder? Because Matel doesn't make money by killing children! They earn money by making the maximum number of children happy. Of course they will try and do so at the lowest cost they can, but I promise you that at the first wiff of a problem such as this they will act fast as lightening. 5) Well you might finally have a point here. Some of the things that go on between government and business are down right shameful. But keep in mind that politicians never do anything for the hell of it. They are motivated 100% by getting votes, and that is the A #1 reason for the unseemly deals.

    Posted by Person at 10/10/2007 @ 3:31pm

  142. Posted by WOLFGANG1 10/10/2007 @ 10:56am

    Yeah, sorry, WOLF, but with PERSON on this.

    There is NOTHING that forces people to eat at McDonald's....therefore there is NO reason to force them (via the Government) to support the health care system.

    You're doing the old stereotypical liberal thing of "Blame the evil corporation, leave personal responsibility out of it".

    Posted by Mask at 10/10/2007 @ 4:12pm

  143. Posted by PERSON 10/10/2007 @ 3:31pm

    Person,

    If you look at what I said, I said that the fast food corporations should think about putting some of their TAX WRITE OFFS towards something like The American Cancer Society, The Heart Foundation, or other health related industries or research groups that help out with the effects of their products.

    Secondly, Mattel sold toys containing lead paint to people. I know, my kids played with the Polly Pockets that had the lead paint in them. The question is, how much lead do my kids have in their systems from the Polly Pockets? Have you ever tried to get a 3 year old to stop putting things in their mouths? It's quite a chore I'm here to tell you.

    So, like you with your car, I expect the products I purchase from Mattel for my kids to be safe. What did Mattel do? They outsourced products to a company in China that was cutting corners for profit. Why else would the company use lead paint? It was cheaper to use that paint. Anyway, there was no quality control and that is why the issue happened in the first place. Mattel was negligent with their quality control. Recalling the toys is putting a band aid on a cut that already exists.

    I am not saying McDonalds or any other food chains shouldn't be able to sell their products. What I am saying is their all out commerical blitz on children is bad news. They want to convince adults to eat their food, fine, but working on kids is another story.

    P.S. I actually like fast food occasionally so I wouldn't want to see these businesses close their doors. I just think they should be somewhat responsible for their products and who they target with the advertising.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/11/2007 @ 07:22am

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