Web Letters: Nation Editor vs. Karl Rove

First, we must never forget: it is of limited value that a right-winger ever loses an argument. Knocked down, they get right back up and walk that argument around again. They have been losing the same arguments for decades and it has never stopped them. They don't need to be right--they need to be rich. And it serves them well that anybody buys what they are selling. They burn up our energy holding us to conflict in dialogue that takes us nowhere. Any argument about what the facts are dilutes the facts. You only need to present another case to affect an argument politically. It doesn't take better than 50 percent to win an argument, the war can still be won with only a 10 percent win on a particular day.

Second, never forget that these are not complex people. We make them so and it is to our loss that we do. They have only one guiding principal and that is this: "Everything For Us and Nothing for Them." Simple--very simple. Everything else is a device that serves that end. Even the indignant assertion that this statement could belittle them. They are not belittled by you while they are eating your children. It isn't in their nature. Don't make the mistake of using your liberal self as a model for all human nature.

Despite what they say, they are not against government. They simply hate the idea that with our government their money has less influence. They have one simple over-riding belief: "The People Who Own The Country Should Run The Country." Small government is not what they are after, at all. Size is irrelevant. Why wouldn't it be for the people who believe that the ends justifies the means? They believe that their money should rule and they only need as much government as it takes to enforce their ownership. And that is a gun pointed at your hungry, needy self.

Do not let them make it look complicated. If you feel that it is, you are losing focus. When everyone knows this, their power will pop and vanish like a childs' soap bubble in the sun.

Ernest Collins

Lynn, MA

Way to go, Katrina! Thank you so much for telling the unrepenting devil (yes, from the greek "diabolos"=to deceive) to his face. I really felt like you were there talking for me.

victor garbarino

Brooklyn, NY

I must say, I thought it was quite courageous of Mr. Rove to sit in a discussion group with fair and formiddable opposing debaters. I was totally surprised he ventured into reality.

And then, out of nowhere came "The Editor" to put him in his place, after cleaning his clock with the points about his and the previous administration's destruction of our economy.

I'm quite sure if George F. Will had not conceded the "socialist" label they (Republicans) now throw around was inappropriate and dated, Rove would have attempted to put it out there as more "red meat" for his base.

How refreshing it was to listen an open debate.

I am looking to forty more years of Democratiic control. Yes, we are on our way!

Alston Nah

Laurel, MD

She didn't "slam him" or "own him."

As far as "starving the beast," are you kidding me? Bush spent like a drunk sailor along with the rest up there, and spending more isn't gonna fix it.

In fact, using this "crisis" to scare people into passing the kind of spending that Obama is proposing is a real disservice to this country. We have sold our kids' entire future down the road.

Don't confuse a debate winner with your preference.

Rick Stone

Mesquite, TX

I have nothing but contempt for the sheer, unbridled arrogance of Karl Rove in presenting himself as Chief Revisionist for the Bush regime, and the complicity of ABC News in giving him a forum to regurgitate his Orwellian rewrite of recent events. Rove is only a few small steps below the worst Holocaust deniers on the grand historical staircase of The Big Lie.

Katrina vanden Heuvel deserves a Silver Star for journalistic gallantry in standing up to and systematically deflating the mendacity of this monumental charlatan, as well as the condescending and disingenuous George Will. Why would anyone want to call this guy "Karl," unless it was in a bad B-movie about the rise and fall of the Third Reich? In my opinion, and that of millions of Americans drowning in the wake of the Bush debacle largely shaped by Rove, just calling him "Mr. Rove" was a painful concession to civility, let alone having to listen to his doublespeak and bold-faced lies, given legitimacy by his appearance on Stephanopoulos's program.

I'd have been stunned by Rove's appearance on any network other than Fox, if I didn't instantly remember that ABC is owned by Disney, another reactionary global corporation firmly rooted in the durable bubble of American imperial supremacy and nationalism, not to mention synthetic, self-serving depictions of "history" and "heroes."

It was only 11:15 am or so Sunday morning, but Katrina ate "Karl's" lunch! George Will was the dessert. Nice job.

Stewart Braunstein

Deerfield Beach, FL

I just wanted to say thanks to Katrina. She was simply priceless. It feels good to hear the changing voice of America. This voice is saying, "Even if it is our father who is wrong, we must stand up and speak out against his wrong. In the end we will be a better family".

Talib Ray

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

It is with great releif to hear that you intend to keep Karl Rove in the limelight.

To hear his version and the redefining of the Bush years of Constitutional crimes upon this nation, he appears to be a nickel-plated angel.

Screw Rush, keep your eye on Rove. There is an old adage: You can watch a thief, but not a liar.

Dennis Myers

Des Moines, IA

Katrina kayoed Rove and I relished every syllable spoken. She is a vanguard for not only The Nation but all working Americans who have no one to speak for them in these hard times. My wife and I were glued to our TV as we watched Katrina summarily rebut and countermand Karl Rove's Republican rantings. Our editor's knowledge and factual delivery is awesome. As our courageous editor stated, the Republicans' antics have been and continue to be to not do anything nor let anyone else do anything. They are a big blob of inertia. Katrina's classy and "in the zone " countenance seemed to unnerve Rove. Kudos to Katrina for this excellent undertaking on behalf of The Nation as well as all progressives and working people. Much more than well done.

Hugo Padilla

El Paso, TX

While there is a certain amount of pleasure in watching a person of intelligence take on Karl Rove, I have to ask why he deserves a national audience in which he can say anything he wants. After all, he continues to ignore subpoenas asking him to testify about his role in highly questionable actions undertaken by the Bush administration.

Richard Bagby

Las Cruces, NM

When my husband heard that Karl Rove would be part of the round table, he said, "Let's check out something else--I can't deal with more of that guy's stuff." I countered, "Yeah, but Katrina vanden Heuvel is also on--she is more than a match..." And indeed, she was. We were both riveted to the entire segment, but two things stood out and are contiuing to echo through the week:

1. Gratitude that Katrina called George Will on the tired baseball analogies. This economic situation, and more than that--the entire harvest of eight years' of mean-spirited and incompetent government--is no game for us, for hundreds of people we know, and so many more we will never know.

2. Naming the current version of the Republican party the party of "NO," ending with "no shame," took courage and honesty. In our faith tradition, we call what Katrina did "speaking truth to power."

Later in the day, my brother called to ask if we had watched, expressing his gratitude to "the woman who is the editor of The Nation."

Gratitude needs to be expressed in tangible ways, and that is why today, many years since my last subscription, I subscribed again.

Susan Heiser

Bloomington, IL

Dear KvH: In a saying of three words, "you slammed him." You were respectful and well prepared, certainly more so than Mr. Rove was when he tried repeatedly to interrupt you or to drown out your assertion of what occurred in the last eight years, and in plain view of the whole nation. Anyone who could not see that clearly was not watching the same program I saw. As for George Will, someone whom I do respect due to his unwaivering belief in what he says (even in error sometimes), to say that George Bush did not intend when elected to go into Iraq is simply laughable. Of course he did. He was only waiting for the chance and it came on 9-11. In Mr. Will, whom I admire, I am truly disappointed.

"Call me Karl"? Call me Karl"?! Was Mr. Rove so delusional that he thought this would be a friendly chat with the editor-in-chief of a news journal so vocifirously anti-Bush? Where has Mr. Rove been? Apparently he does not read The Nation. If he did, he would have been better prepared. As for Mr. Cantor and the Republican plan on his and other Republicans' website: Mr. Rove apparently showed again that he did not know with whom he was dealing. You would not be in the position you now hold if you were not objective enough to search and read for alternative ideas and write agreeably or in rebuttal of those ideas.

The stimulus plan will largely stimulate the economy because it addresses a plethora of needs on which the economy depends: education, roads, help with Amtrak and, yes, even funds for Pell Grants that so many Republicans of the day have panned because they fail to see the future that ultimately will repay those investments with goods and services that produce and create income for millions of Americans. Sending a college student to school on a grant can ultimately regain many-fold the cost that sends him/her by allowing that individual to achieve through discovery/invention, creation of ideas and even the setting of a winning example that education can be for everyone who wants to get ahead, thus inspiring others to create and produce.

Excellent work on your part, KvH, and clearly, not to forget: thanks also to Stan Greenberg.

Riad Mahayni

Richmond, Va

First, great job, Katrina. I do not believe Republicans can sway any intelligent person in a live debate. They are much better at pandering to their minions in the shadows.

As I watched Karl Rove go through the Republican talking points, I wondered to myself, Why is this man not in prison? And listening to his remarks made me think of a person struggling for relevance. After ignoring the middle class for eight years, they now want to lower taxes on us? It's a little late. I, and many like me are already unemployed and before this they laughed at the thought of middle-class tax cuts. Extending unemployment benefits? Before this they kept saying NO. Now, miraculously, they say they are for it?

For a party that claims to believe in principles, they are woefully lacking. For more years than I care to remember, the middle and working class have been an annoyance to the Republicans. They have completely ignored the rule of law and common decency.

For Republicans, the party of the people now means the party of the rich people. It's clear to me that the party of Lincoln is now embracing fascism and the rest of us be damned.

Ken Arnold

Sun City, AZ

Whooo-hoo Katrina! What a great job you did confronting Karl Rove, although how you could bear to look at him is beyond me. I wish you and other members of the media would look back longer than the past eight years. The decline of the middle class (which by-the-way precedes the decline of all great societies) began under Reagan. The great union buster and airline deregulator. Look what that has done to air travel. Flying was a pleasure once; airlines were plentiful, food also and edible, service was pleasant and most flights departed and arrived on time. Deregulation has led to a steady downgrade of the flying experience. There is no end to human greed, which is why regulation is so important in so many areas. There was a widespread belief that what was good for Wall St. was good for Main St. That was never true; however, what is true is that "what is good for Main St. is good for Wall St." I wonder when people will wake up and realize that. Keep up the great work!

Stasia St. James

Palm Beach Gardens, FL

Katrina, thanks for holding Rove's and Will's feet to the fire. You got in a lot of critisism with very few words. Rove is so used to being unchallenged, all he could to was interrupt and lie. Your statement that Limbaugh is the de facto leader of the Republican Party went unchallenged, which is very telling of where they think their party stands.

The only thing I would have done differently is when Rove asked if you'd seen the website, I would've said: "Why do I need to see it ? All your leaders speak for themselves, and none of them have a single intelligent thing to offer in the conversation."

I'm so glad that Stephanopoulos was desperate enough in his ratings to let this criminal on his show.

ken guarino

Miami, FL

It makes far more sense to stop digging as soon as you find yourself in a hole. I have great difficulty separating the two major political parties; they walk and talk the same, as if joined at the hip. Frankly, Senators and Representatives probably ought to be choosen by lottery--certainly, we couldn't possibly wind up with worse than we've got now, and the likelihood is we would wind up far better represented.

Tucano Fulano

Big Bear, CA

I think Karl Rove brings any discussion into a certain meanness that characterizes the Republican Party. He prefers a cynical monologue to a dialogue. Yes, he has no shame, none at all. As was pointed out, any party that bankrupted these United States, ruined our reputation, and still claims to have anything to offer, or gets on a high horse, is a party that is attempting to be shameless. I am sick and tired of Republican meanness, or idiotic happy talk as Jindal offered. I am sick of these incompetents lecturing anyone, let alone Obama. They follow a convicted drug abuser, Rush Limbaugh, and have about as much dignity.

Sunil Misra

Columbia, MD

I saw the show. Katrina needs to be more respectful. Rove demonstrated much more civility than Katrina did and had a better grasp of the facts.

Be more prepared next time and much less shrill.

Michael Dulaney

Houston, TX

Thank you, KvH. I saw you live, and again this AM on the site. You are one brilliant individual, you eviscerated that clown.

Your demeanor was excellent, you knew you had him, you were well prepared, and you didn't allow him to talk over you, which is all the gasbag can do anyway. The look you had when you told him you had read the report was priceless. You caught him red-handed and he didn't know what to do.

If you would have had two or three more minutes, he would have left whimpering.

You are a treasure.

Robert Funke

Norfolk, NE

To Katrina vanden Heuvel: It's been a long time coming for someone to finally confront a Republican like Karl Rove about his party and administration's miserable record and depicable conduct towards the American people and the entire world.

Ms. vanden Heuvel, I am so proud of you. For the strong direct language of truth you used in that debate. For the intelligence you exhibited in knowing the issues from both sides. I have listened to the broadcast twice, and I only wish you would have spoken more. I was especially pleased with the strong and determined language you used in portraying the Republicans as a dangerous obstructionist element in the rebuilding of a country they so throughly destroyed.

What a wonderful job you did!

You should be commended by every American who wants to see this extraordinary president of ours succeed.

For once I heard a debate on national television that allowed a speaker with passion and courage to finally reveal who the real enemy is for America and the world in this crisis, the Republican party of this country.

Brava!

Timothy Giarratano

New York, NY

You did good! The pollster was good too! While Rove's behavior was moderate, he did try, with Will's help, to rewrite the history of the Bush Administration. Review the tape and his take on the "origins" of the Iraq War. Bring in your staff, and you can go after him. Just tell the truth firmly and don't wait for his statements. While I knew Will was pro-Bush, I didn't realize he did propaganda too?

Pervis James Casey

Riverside, CA

Katrina vanden Heuvel is my hero! For about eight years we have seen the Republican Party deregulate this country into an economic abyss. I was so glad to hear Ms. vanden Huevel speak about the present condition of our country and tell Karl Rove that he participated in creating the biggest economic mess this country has seen in a long time.

I think the one thing that really got under my skin was the fact that Karl Rove went on the attack, personal in my eyes, by alluding that she did not read the read the Republican Recovery Plan. I guess he was thinking "her opinions are so liberal. She didn't read our plan." She did read it! And to assume that she didn't was asinine. Shame on you, Mr. Rove.

Monique R. Johnson

Philadelphia, PA